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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:16 am Post subject: NBL vs. ABA |
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OK. This one is meant to stay serious, so let's keep it on track.
Alright, from my observations at races and paying attention to the internet info (the stuff that is explicit and the undertones) it seems like the NBL really is in trouble.
I just got a MySpace post stating that Dave Miller was fired. I would assume that this would in turn mean that his wife was let go as well. Not really sure though. I'm not saying that this is a sign of their troubles but I'm saying looking at the situation as a whole.
I have had a few conversations with people about this and it is my belief that the saving grace of the NBL at this moment is the state of Florida. I believe that if the NBL lost its prominence in Florida, the rest of the organization would crumble.
Just recently I read a thread posted by the track director of Louisville, the NBL's crown jewel regarding his disgust with the NBLs operation.
So, what do you guys think?
I think here in NY, at least at CNY, the vibe at the track is good, but I don't really think that is a good indicator of the sanctioning body's presence. I think that's the people.
On a state level, we have a level of disorganization - once again, I don't know if we can attribute that to the NBL.
But, I know the Regional series needs some work. That I can say goes to the NBL. And of course, there have always been some issues at Nationals with how things are run.
The other primary indicator is the loss of ALL the UCI races to the ABA. It seems like since NBL is in bed with USA and USA is in bed with the UCI we would still get a few. Instead, the ABA is taking all of them for the 2nd year running.
So, here is what it boils down to:
What is your perception of ABA vs. NBL?
What do you think the NBL needs to do better?
What do you like about ABA vs. NBL?
Do you see the NBL as having long-term success in regaining ridership vs. the ABA?
Just jump in.
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AirportFF
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:57 am Post subject: Re: NBL vs. ABA |
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| bmxundergrounddotcom wrote: |
I just got a MySpace post stating that Dave Miller was fired. I would assume that this would in turn mean that his wife was let go as well. Not really sure though. I'm not saying that this is a sign of their troubles but I'm saying looking at the situation as a whole. As far as I know it does not include Erma (yet)
I have had a few conversations with people about this and it is my belief that the saving grace of the NBL at this moment is the state of Florida. I believe that if the NBL lost its prominence in Florida, the rest of the organization would crumble. I agree if Florida goes, so does the NBL
I think here in NY, at least at CNY, the vibe at the track is good, but I don't really think that is a good indicator of the sanctioning body's presence. I think that's the people. Most local racers and to some extent casual regional or national riders aren't even aware of the problems that have plagued the NBL for years. A good portion aren't even aware of the ABA. The sport has none of the prominence that it did from 79-86.
On a state level, we have a level of disorganization - once again, I don't know if we can attribute that to the NBL. It's definately not an NBL issue. They can't get hold of Rose either. The state is screwed up at the state level. It would be a big help if the NBL didn't have such a hands off approach to any state's series. They need to be more involved when the CENSORED WORD is hitting the fan on a local level. Especially if the cause of the problems are partially caused by the state comissioner.
What is your perception of ABA vs. NBL? I really have no opinion. I haven't raced an ABA event since the Jersey City Armory in 1982. But the NBL needs to start listening more to the customer. Ditch the non-profit bullshit and start running the organization like a business
What do you think the NBL needs to do better? Pay better attention to the CUSTOMER. Look into lowering race fees or less races, less series. Less races add more value per race
Do you see the NBL as having long-term success in regaining ridership vs. the ABA? I think that the NBL is dying a slow horrible death. Whether they can regain the respect of their members and save themselves is yet to be seen. |
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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So why was he let go? Any idea?
And, I completely agree with you regarding the business issue.
I am planning on hitting a few East Coast ABA Nationals for the first time this year. I can't wait to really see what the differences are all about.
I think the big problem that is on the horizon is the fact that if the NBL does continue to recede, and if it is at such an incredibly slow pace, it will ultimately only result in the loss of riders and sponsors for the sport.
I honestly wish that some sort of deal could be inked for a merger. The problem I see right now in our area (CNY), is that we are facing the ABA tracks surrounding us. Most of Northern PA is ABA, the Binghamton area is decidedly ABA, and we now have an ABA operation just one hour West of Syracuse. If the ABA finds a way to introduce something into the Syracuse area, I believe it would lead to the fall of the NBL in this area.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Well for me personally, I HATE the way ABA does motos with the first place automatically gettin into the mains. I dont want to pay 50 dollars for a race to race one moto and then race one main. So whenever i do local ABA races ill just chill until the second or 3 moto.
As for locals, i dont have a NBL track within a hour of me, I think there are 4 ABA tracks within a hour and with Endwell hopefully gettin up and running this year i will have 5. Also 3 of the now tracks are really fun and well kept tracks. And there rider counts are normally better than NBLs.
As for Nationals go, NBL has alot more nationals that are in the area or a reasonable driving distance from me. I really like the NBLs moto systems and how they race. But paying 50 per race gets a little annoying when im new to the expert class and getting out of motos is a problem for me right now.
So, ABA is better for locals for me maybe some redline qualifiers, And NBL for nationals and maybe some state series depending on my cash status. I Support both and i have lincense for both but I Prefer the NBL way more than ABA, riders seem to be less tooly and douchey and everyone i know since ive started raacing has been with NBL.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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i have gone to a few aba nats this summer........ i agree the winner of moto goes on to main in first an second motos and the rest qualify based on their overall... that part is about all i found odd
as far as the orginization... i dont know of any tracks around to race locally so havent done that.. but they are very friendly and make it enjoyable for kids.... kids all get nick names the officials are friendly and talkitive and they try to keep everything on schedule
i havent seen problem nbl wise and as clint said its cuz i race locals...... states and a handful of regionals and nationals so far nothing to serious... althought seeing a few issues at xmas that annoyed me biggest being a rule change about sundays practice
nbl has such a hold on certain tracks and regions that its tough to get people over to aba...... ny especially.. i dont know of ANY in ny and the few i know of werent the best designed track... so im thinkin they could use better track designers... also dont see any aba indoor's (havent looked eaither)
i feel nbl should take a good look and revamp the people they have and get things back in order so they can stay around as ive been hearing about them being in trouble for awhile.. hell steal abas format entirely if thats what it takes just leave the moto winner transfers thing out of it
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with the moto transfer thing, although I will never be winning heats and therefore guaranteed 3 motos. In 2006 when I started back racing I intended to go ABA because I have 4 tracks within an hour of me, but I discovered pretty quickly that those tracks are not anywhere near the quality of the NBL tracks I have been to. I raced the national at Cedar and that track was tip top. Unfortunately in my case, in order to race people my own age I need to run at least the regional level events, so it puts me in the NBL.. I am planning to attend 14 race weekends all within 6 hours of my house, not counting locals. If I wanted to do that in the ABA I would be travelling MUCH further, I see 2 nationals within the 6 hour area. I will be at Horseheads and probably Milford DE for the ABA nationals there. I really am not concerned about the way things are run as long as they ARE run, so I can race. If they take my money and go to the casino I am fine with that...
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| Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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moto transfer is gay if im paying 50 bucks i want the most riding i can get nbl lets me do that.
most aba tracks have dirt berms which are never maintained and only have one line.
the aba locals and nbl locals are both a bad system. even in california most of the riders just practice and then leave and dont race the locals.
the aba redline cup is a joke even in the west coast.
the nbl regional series does ok in the midwest but thats about it.
the aba and nbl both have people who have been there for years time for a change.
the nbl team payout is based on 100% payout where aba is a set dollar amount.
the nbl did 41 and over expert first.
the aba did shin guards and shorts first.
nbl tracks the ams can practice random.
aba tracks you need to be pro for random.
nbl tracks at the national level have flow and are fast. and have lines to pass in.
aba tracks at national level are indoors and there is no way that helps you prepare for the foreign uci tracks and the olympics.
aba has professionalism.
nbl has fun.
the nbl tries in the west coast.
the aba does not give a fudge about the northeast.
the nbl is non profit and makes us more aware of what is going on be it good or bad.
the aba is hush hush and since its for profit they dont have to tell us crap. and use race fees to buy clayton a car.
if you race aba you can be the rodeo king.
if you race nbl you can prepare for uci style tracks.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:51 am Post subject: |
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i can honestly say that the nbl has to do something!! this will be our sixth year racing and locals, states, regionals, and nationals are down an easy 25-30% on moto's!!!
I agree with Clint! I honestly think that BMX is way too small to have two sanctioning bodies!!!
I have to watch my opinions because we have never raced ABA! but i can say that all of the major websites that cover all bmx, put more emphasis on aba - example- thanksgiving race had pretty good moto counts and none of those sites had any coverage, and if they did it was a week later!!!
As for UCI it's totally a political thing behind the scenes cuz all the same pros would be there regardless!
I think the NBL needs to get restructured and go back to listening to track directors and riders (people who really know the answer). they need to get involved more with the local scenes and especially the states series!! most states especially NY make their own rules all season long to how things are done!!! it should be right out of the rule book!! if you race nbl - same rules anywhere!!!!! i know a lot of you know what i'm talking about!!
Well, enough from me! I say combine the aba and nbl and have all members vote on the differences!!!
or maybe the nbl can apply for a bailout from the gov't!!!
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:58 am Post subject: |
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lol yea its tough with the 2 santions competing.. its sad that in ny there is really only the nbl and we cant get rider counts with just the 1 sanction... i think maybe if nbl does away with getting points though one race for another level it might help too... i mean i ended up 3rd in regional points in my class and i never raced even 1 regional race.... i think they should incorperate state series more into the overall sceme of things since thats something most people can make it to.... and maybe have a state vs state grudge matchs or something....... maybe have ct an ny meet........ kinda like back in high school.. were the ny team and we go to their tracks and what not for some fun
just thoughts
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:58 am Post subject: |
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the aba local system is just as bad. so dont blame that on nbl blame that on the riders doing nothing to promote the sport.
dont worry about anything you read on forums cause obviously i post on those same forums.
the aba use to own vintagebmx.com until about a year ago when mike carruth took over. basicly until last year if you said anything bad about the aba on vintage you were banned. thats why bmxtruth.com was created.
all state series aba or nbl are run pretty badly. in the aba in california a track called orange y gets the aba championship every year because the track director lies about how many riders he has at locals to the aba so he gets to championship every year. no i am not making that up.
the nbl didnt really seem to care about uci this year anyways. its not an olympic year so uci does not really matter.
the uci is fit way better for nbl type tracks. aba tracks in general have small starting hills and not as big jumps. where as the nbl tracks south park for example are like uci tracks. pretty much the uci tracks are like south park on steroids.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:43 am Post subject: |
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The big thing I am noticing is that the ABA business model is working much better.
I realize that there are major differences between the two, most of which are marginal.
I mean, really the transfer method, I wouldn't mind. It makes racing a challenge and rewards you for winning.
I like the fact that they hand out plates by NAG and not to each and every rookie and novice that shows up to grands. This crap of kids shooting for National #1 rookie or novice needs to stop.
I guess my big thought is - why does the ABA seem to function so much better? Is it just that the West coast will produce more riders, and therefore higher moto counts - or are things being done incorrectly on the East Coast that are keeping our moto counts in the basement?
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| bmxundergrounddotcom wrote: |
I guess my big thought is - why does the ABA seem to function so much better? |
Let's look at it from the local level.
First off the NBL relies on the grassroots (local) level to develop riders that race regionals and nationals. But yet there is absolutely no oversight on the NBL's part when it comes to governing the local scene. I'm not saying that they should keep sticking their fingers in it, but if someone calls with a complaint or question. They should get something more than, "We have no say in the state programs" You're shitting me right? You ARE the sanctioning body, what the hell am I paying for a membership for if you aren't interested in what the hell is happening at the local level? How can you expect to gain respect from your customers (riders) when you can't even get control of what the hell is happening at the local level?
The NYS series has too many qualifiers. PERIOD! There is no reason to have 12 qualifying races when you only have a season that is 5 months long at best. I begged last year with the addition of Kingston to have only 6 qualifiers. One at each track. I was promptly shot down and the two reasons given were. 1) that's the way we have always done it. and 2) the bylaws say that the tracks are entitled two qualifiers. The keyword here is "entitled" not guaranteed. So what you are telling me is that there are 9 tracks in the series we are going to have 18 qualifiers? For Christ sake, Florida only runs 10 qualifiers in the same 5 month period we do. They recognize that by having LESS races you make each one more valuable. It's supply and demand. But the board is under the impression that the tracks will suffer with only one race each. But I feel that rider counts will be higher per event since there aren't as many to pick from.
The restructuring of the qualification process this past November will hurt moto counts. There were, in the past, two ways to qualify to race the championship race. Either through locals only OR a combination of locals and qualifiers. Now granted, the locals only method left the rider mathematically out of contention for a #1 plate. But it let casual riders participate in the championship race. So now by doing away with that method you have alienated the riders who may not be able to afford, or doesn’t have the time to get to the (now required) 5 qualifiers. Eventually those riders will get bored with BMX and find something different to do.
NYS needs to set rules and stick to them. I had people coming to ME last year and asking what this rule or that rule was. I told them to go ask Rose. They would then come back to me and say she doesn’t know. How is this allowed to happen? She is the face of NYS BMX. She should be able to quote the rulebook. She is unorganized, unprepared, and puts too much emphasis on other things other than the racing. Get the racing end of the series fixed and everything else will fall in line.
Back in BMX’s heydey in the early 80’s there were 60-70 motos every week at Middletown. The wheels seem to have fallen off in NY. Look at Torrington. They pull that number each week. That tells me that the riders are there. It’s the local or state program that sucks. NY needs to start looking at how other states maintain their rider counts and less time on bullshit raffle prizes and banquets. PUT THE EMPHASIS ON THE CUSTOMER!!!
It’s also sad to say that there are too many tracks for the number of riders we have. The product has been diluted down so much that people lose interest. Look at Bennington. They have 3-6 motos a week. How are they expected to survive with numbers like that? New Paltz gets 20-22 motos weekly and they consider that huge. It’s a frigging joke. Kingston averaged around 12-16 motos. I was very disappointed. With a track of that caliber, centrally located (for the most part) there should be more rider support. But the New Paltz shuffle also screws them. Where NP races on Fridays until school gets out then they switch to Thursday’s. Pick one damn day and leave it at that. Mike tries the Saturday racing. But with so many other events going on during the course of the season (nats, regionals, states) that it was too inconsistent. The state commissioner needs to tell NP to pick one day and stick with it.
Tracks need to start putting their money into the track. I don’t go to NP for their state of the art snack shop. I go there for the track. Make a better track and the snack shop will sell itself. There was no reason to dump the money into a facility that pulls 20 motos once a week for 6 months when the track sucks. Build it and they will come. TO’s are losing sight of what the track is there for. Sure the amenities are nice, but we are there for the track, not the french fries. Tracks need to change it up a bit. How hard is it to move some dirt around each season? Keep it fresh for the riders. I know Matt got bored as hell with NP so we stopped going. We can’t be the only ones that feel this way.
That’s it for now. I’m tired of typing and need to shovel the driveway.
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rsmith
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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the problem is both sanctions are all about making money thats the problem in both sanctions.
aba all the money goes to clayton and the rest of his goons.
nbl is non profit so they have to manage the money a little but bob t. still gets paid a good amount.
clearly aba makes more money the nbl so why cant the aba fix up the tracks in the northeast? cedar is niceish. get more tracks to be at least that caliber.
the aba would have more money to promote locals if they did use rodeo arenas for half of their nationals.
the nbl would have more money if the didnt have to make so many dumb rookie and novice plates. hahaha.
frankly ny state nbl and aba sucks.
np has two good straights and thats about it. frankly i think patterson is an idiot who has no idea what he is doing. although he was a better nys comiss then rose is.
tri city is good but could be better.
shoreham we all know sucks.
cny blows. in my opinion. seems like the t.o. has given up on that track. rauch or crolick need to take over that track or its dead.
kingston is very nice if i lived a little closer i would prolly race there ever week.kingston deserves a national within the next few years.
the aba ny tracks as most of us know suck. they are never maintained and only have about 6 motos.
ed garrity who runs the ny and some of the northern pa tracks on the aba side is too old to run 4 tracks. he only runs those four because he does it for the money. just think about it. old guy. four crappy tracks. no care about track maintence. yes ed is a nice guy for sure but i think he needs to just stick to horseheads.
valley in all honesty is kinda of nice. huge starting hill. huge. should be an nbl track.
owego just blows. there is so much room there and the track blows.
rockys should be run by the bike shop next to the track not ed.
when endicott gets its indoor aba track built if bmx in ny does not grow nothing will help ny bmx grow.
i know you dont want to hear this but gary is/was one of the better track directors.
for one he is not afraid to voice his opinion to the sanctions.
yes it appears to most that he gave up on the nbl but its kinda like the nbl gave up on us. so he said screw it. i would of done the same thing in his situation.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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i agree with the track nights...... i was racing fri tri city and sat cny.. and couldnt get to kingston because they raced wed... every week i wanted to go to kingston it just wasnt ever possable, and if they throw in a nice shiney new gate that place will be beautiful. but only few weeks into season cny changed to thrusdays again ruling them out and i was only racing the state races and tri city... i think they gotta realize its a weekend sport for family since husbands and wifes that bring their kids and/or also race themselves have work mon-fri and cant get there through the week and that will kill the moto count.
track condition is always a big issue especially tri city. i head there durring day fridays to practice and its all rutted up and washed out all lips are uneven and not very flowing..... just by smothing things out a bit that track could be a nice place... and then redo the last 2 straights and you have a nice place to race.... i mean as far as shape was concerned i thought it was in gorgous shape for the state race.... very smooth no ruts all lines were run out on sides....... and ive seen that at alot of places.... and i asked what they did diff for state race an they said they worked on track half of the day to get it in that shape...... my thought would be why not do that every race day and as stupid as it sounds why not put the chalk lines down for locals if u do it for states.. i mean it looks more professional and like u care about shape of ur track. i am using tri city as example cuz i spent most my time there but im sure other tracks u can use similar examples with
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| Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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hard part with endicot indoor track is 1 its in endicott.... and thats a 2hour drive for me to go there and 2 its not a true fully enclosed heated facility from what ive heard..... and it is also aba.... so id have to get aba liscense just to go to a track thats 2hours away.. so as much as that track intrests me its kinda ruled out just because of the economics of it
fully enclosed open several days though the week and open all winter for practice and races.... id proably get aba liscense and head down since it would make it worth it at that point just my 2cents
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| cny blows. in my opinion. seems like the t.o. has given up on that track. rauch or crolick need to take over that track or its dead. |
Check yourself kid.
Kevin didn't give up. He's tired and has been running the best run track in NYS for nearly ten years, that he started.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:16 am Post subject: |
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hey im just throwing an idea out there....... but what if tracks and bike shops and nbl joined up... and if u get membership u get a 10%discount at local bike shop...... or if u buy bike u get ur first year membership to nbl paid for and ur first race or 2...... just to get people coming since there wouldnt be to much extra exspense beyond a helmet
just thinking outloud on way to help nbl out aswell as local tracks and bike shops... for kids that just come in an buy bmx bike to ride around and not knowing much about racing world
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:20 am Post subject: |
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I agree with just about everything Clint said.
When I heard first heard how the state series was run (runing 2 races in one day) I was dumbfounded why they would do such a thing. Of course I was coming out of my 20 year time warp... they did not have to do that in the 80s. Supposedly at one time the state series was a 2 day event. It shrunk down to a 1 day event, but they still kept the same amount of races (DUMB).
I'll race whatever is convenient. It's riding so it's all good. but it's like "who's Line is it" where the points just don't matter. It's a lot cheaper to go to the skatepark and I get to ride a lot more. |
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:23 am Post subject: |
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i think thats big part of the reason park riding is getting really big and racing is falling off... how many people at skate parks could u maybe get intreted in racing to join in?
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Wade
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:22 am Post subject: |
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tried it... around here we have a free skate park, there are so many city kids and older riders that dont feel like paying at all to ride the park when they can just ride when no one is there.
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lexusison20s
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:27 am Post subject: |
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they can still do that saying promote at places such as xdreams and maybe the shelter in albany and places like that to get some people riding.... try an figure out a way that they will come and race and try it out see if they like it or not
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bmxundergrounddotcom
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:31 am Post subject: |
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Park riders and racers generally have two totally different mindsets.
I see there being minimum crossover.
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lexusison20s
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:56 am Post subject: |
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well i see alot of everyone in here riding park... thats what made me think maybe they would have intrest in racing
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AdvanceCycleryRider
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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Well here is an opinion one could make by just looking at the numbers that each sanction has...
The ABA has about 40-60% more riders than the NBL. And each year it keeps growing.
If the ABA was doing something wrong you wouldn't see those #'s.
The NBL has lost on average of 3-5% of its rider base every year since 2003.
The NBL seems to have disorganization at every level. The locals aren't a big focus anymore. The state series, with the exception of Florida, aren't producing much.
It just seems like they take our money and you get what they want to give you.
I purchased an ABA license last year for the second one in 3 yrs. The ABA moto setup is different, but makes you work harder. The only complaints I read on here, except for Wade, are from guys who aren't winning motos anyways, so you are still able to race all 3 motos.
I saw no problems with this at the local level. It was fun racing against the young kids and fighting them all the way to the finish. I always ran an open at the Newark track, so I always ran extra motos anyways.
At least with the ABA you know what the rules are. With the NBL it could be anybody's guess.
From a viewers standpoint, the ABA puts on a better show for the Grands.
And the ABA is making money and bringing in big sponsors. The NBL wasn't giving away motorcycles or ATV's at the grands.
I believe the NBL will be over within 2 yrs. I think it's in the riders best interest to race for a profitable and personable sanction.
Park vs. race... if you talk with the park riders, you will find out that alot of them use to race at one point. Why the change???? They can ride as long as they want, have no rules, and it's more fun.
Keep this thread going. So far so good.
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AdvanceCycleryRider
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Forgot one thing.
The new NBL president doesn't even have a background in BMX.
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