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jazzbro
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buddhakisa
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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I'd heard the theory about government employees needing to be team players regarding the pet projects of those in charge if they want a career. I guess it only makes sense that reality is the same everywhere. Not surprised there seem to be more front line people who disagree with enabling addicts to extend their addition than those on the Insite band wagon would have us believe.
-SM-
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Nomad
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: |
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This whole concept of the feds intervening in what is "clearly" a provincial health issue is nothing but a smoke screen.
A health issue? Enabling addicts to be better addicts isn't healthy. Making it easier for addicts to shoot up doesn't make them healthy. A health issue? What a load of handy crap. A health issue would be taking steps to get them off whatever they're addicted to. Making it easier to shoot up has nothing to do with health. |
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Midwest
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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It sounds to me as though there is more than sufficient data to refute the idea that needle exchanges in Vancouver reduce secondary damage. It appears to me that it's time to reroute some of those dollars.
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Phillippe
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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Nay Midwest,
I got scolded for not knowing the people of BC well enough to know that they can vote Reform one minute and NDP the next. They'll continue to support this because it makes all bad go away while that vile federal government takes away their play toys! Besides, if Insite were in Montréal, the addicts would get a Conservative t-shirt, a blowjob and 45 dollars... wasn't that the jist of the article? I'm glad people are starting to speak up. Enabling a serious addiction with serious consequences is laughable. We don't tolerate kids who steal, why should we tolerate kids who shoot up?
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marginallymanic
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| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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I refuse to get into it again, and would just mention that there are two sides to this arguement.
The wikipedia article has some good links
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insite
And I believe this is the latest report
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5gXytn257cSIqQRGeOCo61Rw9o1YQ
Maybe I should add. In Vernon we have a treatment centre that deals with some of the East Side addicts, and there is also one run by The OIB for natives at Round Lake.
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buddhakisa
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: |
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Just to be sure I have this right. It is illegal to possess certain drugs, and heroin and other "inject-ables" are on the list of prohibited drugs. As part of an effort to see if there was a better way, the feds agreed to suspend the law in 2003 for a specific location, presumably to collect data and give its proponents time to prove their theory works. The feds now decide they are not convinced the approach is working well enough to extend the suspension of the applicable laws. There are those who argue the site works and there are those who argue it doesn't, or simply argue enabling addicts isn't a smart move. The fact remains the law is the law. Apparently some judge has decided that getting yourself addicted to an illegal substance is part of every Canadians inalienable rights, and the government is violating that right if doesn't facilitate trafficking and possession of supposedly illegal drugs.
"In a May 27 decision, B.C. Supreme Court Justice Ian Pitfield ruled that federal drug laws prohibiting drug trafficking and possession are unconstitutional and gave the federal government a year to rewrite them."
Who did this fucking idiot blow to get appointed to the bench? Stupid is the only reasonable way to describe this crock of shit. This isn't just a matter of BC taxpayers saying they are fine with funding Insite and keeping it in their own backyard. This fucking idiot says federal laws prohibiting drug trafficking and possession are unconstitutional. Why stop there, why not make it unconstitutional to have laws that make it illegal to steal to support a drug habit? At what point do reasonable people say there are some lines you don't cross, that some "means" just shouldn't be used regardless of how much the "end" appeals to you. Prohibiting drug trafficking is unconstitutional. Fucking insane.
And I'm assuming I'm getting the last word cause you don't want to go into it MM. 
-SM-
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marginallymanic
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: |
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You got it Buddha.
We covered all possible arguements three weeks ago, unless someone has something new to say.
I respectfully (in your case) disagree.
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marginallymanic
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: |
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Wente has another column today attacking Insite, but what I found particularly interesting were the comments
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080714.wcowent15/CommentStory/specialComment/ho me#comments
A central theme of which is, "well, what is the answer" because the war on drugs has been a huge success right?
So, what do you do about people who take drugs, treat them as victims or treat them as criminals?
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marginallymanic
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jazzbro
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Haven't read the comments but "well, what is the answer" is hardly a defense for enabling addiction. You could just as easily turn it around. Has addiction/chronic drug use decreased because of Insite? I think that's what the debate is about.
Treatment = good (thought there will probably not be enough money to ever fund enough treatment, and I'm sure the success rate is low)
Enabling addiction = not good |
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marginallymanic
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: |
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Don't get me wrong, I don't believe insite, or the 47 similar places through out Europe and Australia, are the answer, I believe they are a tool in the toolbox. The Swiss for instance have one that has been operating for almost twenty years, and they have used a pronged approach. Education, treatment and harm reduction..with some success. 150 new heroin users per year, down from 800. Singapore has a successful drug policy also, they put them to death.
Take your pick I guess, but I don't see the Singapore example taking off in Canada anytime soon.
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jazzbro
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: |
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MM - Do you know the success rates for the treatment option? I suspect the ultimate success rate is abysmally low in the long run. Even if it is, I think that's a better use of resources than providing free shoot-up material.
I have yet to hear a reasonable argument for how providing free shoot-up material does NOT constitute actively enabling addiction. (And I know this is different than whether or not it helps limit the spread of disease, etc. - other benefits touted by that approach).
Ultimately, if you could either provide 1,000 free needles, or treat 1 person successfully with similar resources - what would the better choice be? |
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marginallymanic
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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what would the better choice be?
I don't think you can make that choice, thats the point. You need all aspects.
I think 1 in 100 attend AA meetings after two years. Those are the kind of numbers you get.
| Quote: |
| Methadone drastically reduces, and often eliminates, heroin use among addicts. (9) The Treatment Outcome Prospective Study (TOPS)—the largest contemporary controlled study of drug treatment—found that patients drastically reduced their heroin use while in treatment, with less than 10% using heroin weekly or daily after just three months in treatment. (10) After two or more years, heroin use among MMT patients declines, on average, to 15% of pretreatment levels. (11) Often, use of other drugs—including cocaine, (12) sedatives, (13) and even alcohol (14) — also declines when an opiate addict enters methadone treatment, even though methadone has no direct pharmacological effect on non-opiate drug craving. |
http://www.lindesmith.org/library/research/methadone.cfm
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"An it harm none, do what ye will"
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marginallymanic
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Neil McKeganey, professor of drug-misuse research at the University of Glasgow, is considered an authority on illicit substances in his country. His study, which is to be published later this month, determined that giving methadone to heroin addicts has a 97-percent failure rate. He interviewed 695 drug users at the start of treatment in 2001, then again 33 months later to find out whether they had been able to get off drugs. McKeganey found that nearly three years after treatment, only three percent of addicts were drug-free.
But some health professionals question the study’s design.
“That finding doesn’t surprise me at all,” says Dr. Steve Adilman, clinic coordinator at Vancouver Native Health, which is located in the Downtown Eastside and has approximately 100 clients on methadone at any given time.
“Methadone is a highly effective harm-reduction strategy; that’s always been how it’s been used in North America,” Adilman says. “Sure, there are individuals in places who do an abstinence-based model, but if we’re talking about the Downtown Eastside, then I would say we’d probably get the same results here. But no one working in the field would say it’s a failure.”
snip
The College of Physicians and Surgeons of British Columbia administers the province’s methadone-maintenance program—which currently has 8,121 people enrolled—and issues guidelines for practice to the 356 doctors who are licensed to prescribe the substance for opioid dependency. Dr. Heidi Oetter, the college’s deputy registrar, describes methadone as a proven treatment for heroin addiction when used in conjunction with other strategies. |
http://www.straight.com/article/experts-divided-over-use-of-methadone
8000 in BC alone, and I think there are about 40,000 total in the USA. It really is the only known treatment other than cold turkey, or a heroin maintenance programme, The Swiss and Brits use both I believe
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