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jazzbro
Cabinet Minister
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:29 am Post subject: |
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Resources are always limited. Those choices always have to be made. Look at our medical system. Those choices are made every day.
If you can save one person from addiction (and in the case of heroin - most likely near-term death) with similar resources to what it takes to provide free needles to X number of others thus further enabling their addiction, how can one even morally consider making the choice to do the latter? |
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marginallymanic
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:36 am Post subject: |
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I think that 8000 puts some perspective to it. We don't just throw them in Prison, although the Feds do use methadone in prison. The whole point of Insite was to get injection drug use out of the back alleys, where it just spreads HIV, and into a controlled area where clean needles, drug overdose supervision and medical help are available.
If anyone knows East Hastings Street, it may still look terrible, but it is a whole lot better than it was say in 2000.
If we spend a few million dollars now on prevention, how much do we save in AIDS treatment, or keeping them in prison, where they will still get AIDS anyway?
Incidentally, the tax payers of BC pay for the methadone treatment, not the feds..... we don't get some extra money from the feds for it, but they say we can't treat them in the way we want.
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marginallymanic
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Maybe I am wrong, or maybe you just refuse to countenance it, but a pronged attack is the only proven route, or the Singapore method. We all know how well the "war on drugs" is doing.
http://www.drugsense.org/wodclock.htm
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Phillippe
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Location: Westmount, Québec, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: |
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I have mentioned it before, I have a relative who is a drug user. It started out when they were 14, innocently with marijuana. We smoked it together once, but I never really got into it. They, however, did. Marijuana turned to coccaine and marijuana. This in turn went into coccaine, marijuana, ecstacy, mescaline, uppers, downers, mushrooms, acid, opium and a pack a day cigarette habit. What has kept my cousin from complete self-destruction is the availability of money. Instead of having to turn to cheaply produced drugs like crack or meth, they can continue to use expensive drugs, often. I have no doubt that if the bottom falls out on their money, there'll be a serious problem.
I don't know if Insite is a brilliant idea. Enabling a drug user, no matter how much "information" you give them, isn't going to change a damn thing. It doesn't make them any more inclined to stop. I think what stops them is hitting rock bottom and finding that there is a place where life can be so dramatically terrible that one has to change. If Insite prevents hitting rock bottom by being a safe site, then I don't know if I support it. I can't imagine what it is like to be a drug user, and I won't say I can even begin to understand, but it destroys families and lives. What is Insite doing to stop drug use, and not enable it? Giving patients information? So what? It's not something they don't already know.
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jazzbro
Cabinet Minister
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| marginallymanic wrote: |
Maybe I am wrong, or maybe you just refuse to countenance it, but a pronged attack is the only proven route, or the Singapore method. We all know how well the "war on drugs" is doing.
http://www.drugsense.org/wodclock.htm |
We can all be wrong - that's a given. It's the internet - we can opine wihtout consequence. But it's not about right or wrong in this case - You're just choosing not to respond to a fairly straightforward question.
Fact - resources are limited
Fact - choices therefore need to be made
Question - is it better to deploy those resources on helping people get better or enabling their addiction? (If you prefer 'preventing the spread of disease' or some other phrase to 'enabling their addiction' feel free. I regard them as basically one and the same.) But it's a straightforward and honest question.
My premise is heroin addicts are essentially lost to society unless and until they are reahbilitated. The chances of rehabilitation are low but non-zero. An argument COULD be made that allowing people to survive longer increases their chances of being rehabilitated some day. But I have not heard that argument.
An argument could be made that it is inhumane to allow people to use dirty needles thus spreading disease further than would otherwise be the case. I THINK that's the argument for INsite, etc. I expected to hear that argument here, but haven't.
I've got no problem with multi-pronged approaches but don't accept that the alternative to INsite is either execution of drug-users or any other extreme scenario. And the "war on drugs" argument is specious. |
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marginallymanic
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:23 am Post subject: |
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I have replied
My choice is to do both within the limited resources.
If that wasn't patently obvious, I don't know what is.
| Quote: |
| An argument could be made that it is inhumane to allow people to use dirty needles thus spreading disease further than would otherwise be the case. |
I have made that point
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marginallymanic
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: |
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Maybe not "inhumane", but the general gist.
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jazzbro
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Then, implicit in your response is your judgement that it is better to enable the addiction for many users than to treat a few of them and actually address the problem - even for a very few. (It wasn't patently obvious but now it is - sorry. It takes a while for some of us.)
Question - Should they be provided with 'clean' drugs so they can lessen their risk as well? It seems like exactly the same thing to me. Please use small words. |
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marginallymanic
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit
| Quote: |
| implicit in your response is your judgement that it is better to enable the addiction for many users than to treat a few of them |
Implicit to you, but it is obviously not, because in my opinion, and that of the Swiss, and other jurisdictions, you will get little success without a pronged approach.
So you see, I believe that the approach of the BC government, and other governments throughout the west, is the correct approach, and unlike you, I will allow you to say what you believe.
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marginallymanic
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Oh and ....my reason for getting back into this thread was the hope that someone had some good ideas, but given that is not the case, I think we have exhausted the subject.
So I will now let you tell me what I really mean, and leave the stage to you.
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marginallymanic
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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I failed to answer your last question
| Quote: |
| Should they be provided with 'clean' drugs so they can lessen their risk as well? |
The Swiss , amongst others, do that, with some success. It is something we should consider in my opinion. There addiction rate is much lower than N America and much of the rest of Europe.............effectively, a maintenance programme which prescribes the drug from a pharmacist if all else fails. It takes crime out of the picture..........but only if we are taking the other measures that go with it.
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jazzbro
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| marginallymanic wrote: |
| Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit... |
Just playing along with what is dealt. But you're right of course. |
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Phillippe
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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I think the danger with citing Switzerland as an example is the low level of social stratification and level of social diversity. It's a very homogenous country, and although linguistic diversity does exist, the greater issues of income inequality, unemployment, etc are not as large and thus many of the risk factors for drug abuse are abated. I don't know of many durg-rehab programs in countries with a more realistic social diversity that have worked tremendously well.
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I run a student organization.. You can call me El Presidente. |
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Nomad
Cabinet Minister
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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Does the evidence say that Insite works? According to Wente, there's nothing to support the theory.
Are there only two alternatives? Does it have to be prison or Insite? I would say there has to be another answer. I reject the argument that it's more compassionate somehow to "help" these people by providing needles and a clean facility. I think in the long run, it would be more compassionate to get them off the drug.
Put them in semi-prison. Make them stay there until they are no longer hooked. Then let them out to hopefully become useful to themselves again.
I haven't seen a single argument that makes me believe Insite is something I should be in favour of. Letting them be addicts doesn't help them or any of the rest of us.
Reducing crime? Locking them up would do that better.
Being compassionate? I disagree.
Restoring the neighbourhood? Doesn't sound like it.
Making them healthier? Hardly.
Making them useful members of society? Don't think so.
Making them able to be self-sufficient? Nope again.
What exactly was the goal? Was it reached? Why continue it? Do diabetics get free needles? Do people addicted to tobacco get free tobacco?
Would you let a child continue doing something that was bad for him, even help him to do it?
The logic baffles me. |
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marginallymanic
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The State and Federal officials, administrators, and program staff who participated in this study generally agreed on the importance of offender rehabilitation as an organizational goal, but for reasons of politics, structure, or statutory constraint, the study found that the substance abuse education/treatment programs actually implemented in boot camp facilities are not likely to result in the rehabilitation of boot camp participants. |
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/govpubs/nij/bootcamp.htm
Insite may seem like enabling, and of course it is to a degree, but as part of a pronged approach , then the pronged approach is the only thing that seems to work to a degree, and I really don't see why a city like Bern is much different to Vancouver.
Stabilising people on Methadone, or even an opiate can make some people productive members of society. You have to normalise their life, so that they don't spend 20 hours per day wondering where their next fix is coming from, and finding the money for it.
There are no easy answers. 19 billion dollars a year in the USA has not produced an answer, their situation gets worse every year.
Of course, if you can get rid of the source, then everyone has no choice but to dry out or commit suicide, but so far we are enabling hard drug production, and getting our knickers in a knot over Marijuana....which I accept can be a bad course for a kid, depending on the kid. Some people can cope with it, a minority seem to be effected mentally.
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