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You have got to be kidding me with these bafoons!! What kind of people come to beg for money with their private jets!! What really sucks is that I work for a GM dealer and my future depends on these morons. I believe there is no way the government should give them any money. They just don't get why they are failing!! Hey media people why don't you ask common people like me about where the big 3 go wrong and stop asking rich entitled ceo's that have never worked for what they have!!What does everyone else think? Mabe it's me ,and someone could explain what's wrong with my thinking. I also don't agree with the wall st bailout either!!

Hey, they are just asking for money. And they are asking for a lot less that AIG or the banks.

I think the auto and steel industry in the country needs help.
We bailed out the airlines right after 911: and they still layed off a ton over people. And their execs all fly in private jets (funny, ain't it? guess they can't fly with common folk.)

We bailed out AIG, and they keep planning spa cruises and corporate vacations.

BAiled out PNC and what did they do with the cash"? They turned around and bought another failing bank just after it layed 4000 people. and they want more...

lol

keep this in mind: Without the auto industry, you can cancel the steel industry and at that point, what will be made in america? Not a helluva lot.

And what good does giving the banks money? "it will free up money for loans..." to people that already can't pay their loans???
_________________
Great Lakes Brewery: Buy beer, buy local!

-Mark

I saw the look on their faces also-they looked like they'd had been sucking on lemons;fly commercial?jet pool? HOW COMMON, we couldn't possibly do THAT!!! That's why they don't deserve the bailout-they don't get it, has anyone offered to give back salary or bonuses? If I recall correctly when the fed's helped out Mopar back in the 70's didn't Lee Iacoca take no salary? Yeah it's going to hurt alot of folks if GM goes under but produce a QUALITY car and people would buy it. I have a 93 Honda and 91 Camaro-guess which one is running right now and which has 6 inches of snow on it-hmmmmm? I hope you don't lose your job, ffejie, you have got to be angry at these idiot's at GM.

Thank you oldfuzzster , I really appreciate your concern. There are ways to fix the issues but the big 3's egos are what have to be taken care of . How about this. We give the bailout money to the big3 when they change the leaders that ran them into the ground. I have been working in a gm dealer for 19 years now. They waste soooo much money it is unbelievable, Their arrogant attitude is that they can do whatever they want and we have to buy american cars. Well in the 60's and 70's we did but now we don't. Their total ignorance to how to treat people is now catching up to them. The funny thing is that they did see it coming and tried to do it right in the Saturn franchise. It totally changed the way all businesses delt with people, however they found it to be different from what they knew in the past. So they get rid of olds, turned the olds cars into saturn and now they use the Saturn name which is a total sham compared to what it was!!Oh yeah they totally lowered what they pay the mechanics and sent production to mexico!! Yup we should help them out.

Well I guess I will be out of a job soon with gm. I just don't understand how this will help the economy. Put more people out of work(with my tax money, how ironic) I guarantee whatever happens I will never buy an american car until the rich bastards running the us companies are gone and beaten severely!! I will land on my feet I have a skill that I can market but I really liked the saturn way of doing business!! Another funny thing is that that gm jackass drove over to washington in a malibu, which is a Saturn aura in disguise!! Real funny jackass!!!

^For what it's worth, my sister's looking at a layoff from Mittal Steel. They started laying off about a month ago and shutdown one of their blast furnaces. They have NO orders and have tons of steel stock-piled off I-77.

My heart goes out to everyone losing their jobs these days. this situation isn't pretty, and i fear it's going to get uglier...
_________________
Great Lakes Brewery: Buy beer, buy local!

-Mark

Flyingscooter wrote:

With all that steel nearby, perhaps it would make sense to do something with it locally... Perhaps something with rails and supports. We could put it next to that big lake over in Geauga County...

sorry to hear that flyingscooter. That sucks!! It really gets me that the only people getting hit are the hard working people!! The rich get richer and the poor get kicked to the street! How is the economy supposed to get better if the people don't have jobs to buy products? Hey chad I should have some free time to help you in my van down by the lake Smile

. I know we'll all get through this because we are hard working americans!!

ffejie: Sounds like a plan. I've got a co-worker who knows CAD pretty well, and I've got a copy of No Limits. I'm sure we could design something. Razz

And isn't your van supposed to be by a river, not a lake? Of course, then that would be a fire hazard. (Only in Ohio would that joke fly! Whee!)

Well the river is too far away and I think my van could only make it to the lake. We'll have fun kinda like that david carusso guy !! oh wait robinson carusso, silly me

First off, let me say Im sorry for any job loss you may be facing. Im not working now, and it's rough.

I am totally annoyed by this bail-out. Why should we seriously help them? I feel they will only get back into this situation again... unless they really buckle down and improve their way of business... which is what congress is wanting them to do. I would like to see them get that $32 Billion cut in half, then come back and talk.

As of now, it looks like Ford is actually the one thats doing better, and they feel that they can get away with not having to borrow money. Ford's CEO is pretty funny and got some heat recently because He drives a LEXUS and visited a Toyota and complimented them on their building style. Also, if you notice.. Ford tend to be very innovative and their quality has very, very much improved.

Domestic Manufacturers have a lot against them right now, and many of the things they did started back 30 years ago:

• Used the UAW: which made for some lousey, lazy and very high paid employees. Honda uses Temporary employees, and they hire the ones they want.

• Were too generous with retirement: Retired workers right now are bringing in thousands of dollars and not working.

• Made the exact same car for three different plates: Where this is "sort of" indirectly done today (ie: Malibu/Aura/G6 or Fusion/Zepher/Milan and Pontiac Vibe/Toyata-GM Matrix) the ones done in the 70's were the "Exact" same car... and customers hated it. To be fair... nearly all manufactures build cars on multiple bases (Honda Accord/Acura TSX, Toyota Camry/Lexus ES300) to keep costs in-line.

• Wasted money on research for short-lived models: Like the Chevy SSR truck/roadster that went on sale for $38,000, the 2005 Pontiac GTO which was a 2-door V8 with a $40,000 sticker and the Ford Thunderbird which was a beautiful $42,000 2-person roadster.... come on, though!

And does Chevy sell enough of the PT Cruiser-inspired HHR's to have spent all that money to develop and make them "just" to compete with Chrysler? Time will tell.

The Mustang sold well because it started at $19,000

• Didn't build enough small cars till it was too late. When the gas shortage of the 70's happened, the imports chimed in with Civic, Corolla and the VW's... we came back with the Gremlin, the Pinto and the Chevet... which were all POS's and during that period, the imports grew this amazing loyalty with very happy customers for their product and reliability.

Its come full circle... as the imports have the tiny Fit, Yaris, Versa and Smartfor2 all WE have here is the Chevy Aveo.. and thats not even a domestic-made car. The smallest car Dodge has is the Calibur... which was bigger than the Neon they replaced.

Pontiac doesn't make a minivan anymore, either.

In 1978, most domestics wouldn't stand by their products... then Honda built the ACCORD... which turned out to be a LEMON... it was blowing head gaskets, or had brakeing issues or electrical problems and had all kinds of other quirks... so in a BOLD move, Honda recalled each of those Accords and fixed them for FREE to help satisfy their customers.. and that worked...everybody in detroit were flabbergasted.

• Buying Spree: The domestics always want to be the biggest and the largest, so they gobbled up the independent Saturn, Hummer, AMC, Daewoo, Volvo, Mercedes etc... while the more reliable imports stayed very small.. and focused on their cars only. GM for example, makes too many cars.. sure, they are all marketed somewhat differently, but really, do you need a Malibu, Aura, and G6 when they are really mostly the same car for the same "niche"? You can say the same for Ford, but their Fusion/Milan/Zepher each are marketed to different nichs.

• Marketing over products: The domestics were all about making the highest sales and coming up with Billions of dollars of advertising for mediocre cars. They were so determined to sell the cars that they didn't put enough quality into the cars themselves. Now look at Fords new campaign... they have car owners (or actors) who drive foreign nameplates to swap and drive the ford in the commercial... and they get basic-people to do this, so it gets you in the showroom.... see.. thats good advertising. you want to get people to come back and check you out.

• Too many re-names: Ford screwed up and renamed the Taurus the 500 when they redesigned it. People tend to stick with familiarity, but its all about marketing. Sales were off, so when the new CEO came in, he renamed the car the Taurus. GM made their Cavalier the Cobalt, the Bonneville the G8 and other stuff like that... why? Do you have to rename everything?

There will always be the loyal American buyer... but when does he or she turn?

In conclusion, GM and Chrysler need to get their act together and not whine about anything, they brought it on themselves. Chrysler doesn't even have a hybrid... or small car. The only reason they built the Challanger and GM the Camero was due to the Mustang taking off so well, but its a certain 'niche" car and they wont be enough to save them.

Now heres why the bailout "might" be good... if GM "goes under" they use many of the same distributors Honda and Toyota use.. so that may cause the distributors problems and force them to raise their prices, so we dont want them to get nabbed... its not their fault.

Gm, Ford and Dodge are going to cut jobs either way anyway, but if it doesn't pass, they'll just clean house and hurt a lot of people... BUT.. heres the thing...

"People need cars"

So if GM goes bye-bye, Toyota and Honda sales will pick up... and they BUILD here because it's cheaper because 80% of the worlds cars are sold here... so that means, Honda will build more plants and Toyota as well. Honda is putting a new plant in SE Indiana as I write this.

Not Alone:

Due to the "scare" of the economy lately, EVERYBODYS sales are down over this time last year. Honda is down 31.6% over Nov. 2007, Toyota down 34.9% over Nov. 2007, so Honda is going to "slow" production as before, they were doing some serious overtime, so in order to keep up with the demand trend.. they are going to crank out less cars.

A final thought: I drive a 1989 (19 year old) Honda with 208,000 miles and even though it has "never" been trouble-free, (various things here and there) I still like it and hope to keep driving it. You still see this model everywhere.. Cant say the same for some older everyday-Domestics.

John yo umake very good points and I agree with just about everything you say. I am against the bailout unless the leaders of the companys and their cronies are gone. The only thing I have is that alot of hard working honest workers are losing their jobs because of arrogant stupid ceo's that have no business running one. They cannot change and that scares me. Luckily I don't work for GM, I work for a very good Dealership. They Told us to relax because we own the buildings we are in and are at a very good location. So even if we are not saturn we will be something!! I am very blessed to work for a company that is run well!!

Yeah, Im totally against the bailout. Im just worried about the other folks down the line. It wouldn't just hurt one of two companies, it woould hurt several hundred.

Like I said, they brought this on themselves years ago.

Very good points, though I will mention one that has hurt GM even before the economic downturn:

No Drool-magnet car. The Corvette is too affordable, and too mid-range and mediocre when it comes to sports cars. They need to take the Corvette, stop making the Cadillac knock-off, and put it in the same class as the Viper or the Italian cars. Then bring back the Firechicken for the people wanting a budget sports car.

^ Hopefully the Camero will be the Drool-Car, and they will sell a lot if they start around $20,000 and they offer both a hardtop and convertable, but if they pass the costs off to the customers, then it wont have the staying power.

Problem with those Super-sports cars like a Viper is that they take a LOT of money to develop, but only a few can afford to buy them. They will save more money with somethig massed produced.. at least for a few more years. I think they make a few different levels of Corvette already, but the design overall needs some refreshing.. maybe like the 1969 high front fender ones, but not too-retro since they already have the Camaro launching.

Honda must know something right now, because they haven't broughten back the Acura NSX.. and Porsche is building SUV's

VW just stopped making the $100,000 V-10 Phaeton and Ford dropped the $100,000 GT, but now offers very fast Mustang GT Cobra, and that saves money because it uses the same basic parts.

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