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CuddyTheFlash Double Loop User is Offline Joined: 14 Sep 2008 Posts: 244 Location: In the darkest corner of your mind	Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:45 am    Post subject: · Quote I know what you mean Chad.  The perfect examples are the Chevy Lumina (mini-van or car), and of course the Lumina/Silhouette/Transport and even recently, Sky/Solstice. I'll only consider car companies that have something in a sedan under $20,000. _________________ I don't like a certain company so everything they do MUST be wrong, even if it's right.  And that makes me look like a bigger fool. Take a stand against coasters that hurt or kill people.  Holiday World & Knotts Berry Farm, we are watching you!
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John Peck Double Loop User is Offline Joined: 03 Jul 2007 Posts: 279 Location: Columbus, Ohio USA	Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 1:12 pm    Post subject: · Quote ffejie wrote: Why would you consider Pontiac a stronger brand? I will do a little research but , Saturn sold more cars in 2008 than Buick, GMC and Cadillac combined in the US. Well, first, it's not fair to compare Saturn to niche-specific brands such as Cadillac or GMC. But perhaps you missed my point, the "Brand" of Pontiac is more well-known and associated with more famous models of car and really, the main reason that it's still powerful is that: A) The 3 sports cars (GTO, Firebird, Solstice) B) Pontiac has been around twice as long as Saturn C) Years and years of Marketing "We build Excitement" D) People who trusted the brand still purchase their cars    (same with Saturn, but there are more of them) So basically, when you compare the two brands, Pontiac edges over Saturn, thus making it a more powerful brand.
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ffejie Thunder Falls User is Offline Joined: 18 Jun 2008 Posts: 794	Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:54 pm    Post subject: · Quote Pontiac may be a older brand, however if you ask any owner of a dealer, 5 years ago, would you rather have a Pontiac or Saturn deler?. It would be an overwhelming Saturn. by the numbers if you figure in the sales per dealer , Saturn blew away every Gm brand by far! Alot of places there was not a saturn store within 300 miles. John I respect what you have to say and I don't mind debating with you. We both have our views and I'm good with disagreeing with you. If you haven't guessed yet I am heavily invested in Saturn and have seen lots of things that Gm has done to make us fail. saturn was more than a car company, It changed the way the car business sold and serviced cars.  I could go on and on about what Saturn changed the industry, but I would be boring to myself. I like you John and I can agree to disagree with you.
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ChadV Raging Wolf Bobs User is Offline Joined: 02 Jun 2008 Posts: 438	Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:19 pm    Post subject: · Quote John Peck wrote: A) The 3 sports cars (GTO, Firebird, Solstice) B) Pontiac has been around twice as long as Saturn C) Years and years of Marketing "We build Excitement" D) People who trusted the brand still purchase their cars    (same with Saturn, but there are more of them) A) Solstice was introduced along with the Saturn Sky.  The Sky, $3k more expensive, sold better than the Solstice. http://www.leftlanenews.com/pontiac-solstice-sales-decline-saturn-sky-still-in-demand.html B) 84 years for Pontiac, 24 years for Saturn... 107 for Oldsmobile.  Why didn't they kill Pontiac in '04 and bring back the 442?    (Seriously, though... I'd rather have a '72 Olds 442 than any Trans Am, and I think the Trans Am was awesome, and looked better than the Camero.) D) I'd have to check, but I think Saturn's loyalty numbers were higher than Pontiac, Olds, and Chevy...  I know my boss at work swore he'd only ever own GM cars, and then when he didn't like the Vue redesign went to Toyota instead...
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ffejie Thunder Falls User is Offline Joined: 18 Jun 2008 Posts: 794	Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:36 pm    Post subject: · Quote [quote="ChadV"] D) I'd have to check, but I think Saturn's loyalty numbers were higher than Pontiac, Olds, and Chevy... quote] We had a guest retention rate almost double the industry average. and we were double digit percentage over the 2nd place in retention. Damn!! we did it right!!
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ChadV Raging Wolf Bobs User is Offline Joined: 02 Jun 2008 Posts: 438	Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:56 pm    Post subject: · Quote ffejie: I noticed.  My wife has owned nothing but Saturns since her first S-Series car, including two consecutive Vues.  I'd love to get ahold of an Aura, but I just barely can't afford it right now...  But once Saturn's gone, my GM Card credits are going to be useless, since I don't like any of the current Chevys and can't afford a Buick. John:  Just a clarification, I'm not saying it was right to put Pontiac under, just that it was a narrower decision than what your argument made it out to be.
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ffejie Thunder Falls User is Offline Joined: 18 Jun 2008 Posts: 794	Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:45 pm    Post subject: · Quote Chad, Pay attention in the next few weeks. They are planning on some super huge deals on Auras. We have quite a supply of them right now.  My recomondation would be a 4 clylinder with the 6 speed trans. You can't beat it. Not a whole lot slower than the 2 v6's but you get about 30mpg on them.
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ChadV Raging Wolf Bobs User is Offline Joined: 02 Jun 2008 Posts: 438	Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:00 pm    Post subject: · Quote I was looking at the I4.  My Alero gets 19 City, 28 Hwy, so I want to improve, and the V6 is not an improvement.  (The 3800 would be, but no Saturns with one.) Which dealership are you at?  I've been going to Chapel Hill.
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ffejie Thunder Falls User is Offline Joined: 18 Jun 2008 Posts: 794	Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:38 pm    Post subject: · Quote I'm at Middleburg heights. Not too far away! I could get you a great salesman and we could go over to the bar.
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les Beaver Land Mine Ride User is Offline Joined: 31 Aug 2008 Posts: 14	Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:39 pm    Post subject: · Quote I've driven my 01 SL1 since it hit the lot in 2000.  Our extended family has had a total of 5 other Saturns besides mine.  But I can say that some of us long timers did notice the differences in the company over the last few years. DH's Ion has had more repairs and problems in the time since we got it than my SL1 did in the same time span.   Mine is still running strong, and I'm currently putting aside what was my monthly payments into a fund for my future Prius.  I can't in good faith buy another GM because I've been peeved with them since they went and put the odometer in the middle of the dash board and then went to hatchbacks in the smallest cars offered.  When we realized that DH's car doesn't handle snow like mine does, and that it has had more issues, we started looking at Toyotas. Ffejie, my heart goes out to all the Saturn employees, we've really bonded over the years with the BV store in Canton. _________________ Some people merely follow their dreams.  Others hunt them down and mercilessly beat them into submission.
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ffejie Thunder Falls User is Offline Joined: 18 Jun 2008 Posts: 794	Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:30 pm    Post subject: · Quote Thanks Les. the quality stuff really started changing in 2000 when gm took a more on-hand approch to us. I know some of the people over at bv, our training is right across the street at stark. I have had atleast one saturn in my drive for the last 18 years!
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CuddyTheFlash Double Loop User is Offline Joined: 14 Sep 2008 Posts: 244 Location: In the darkest corner of your mind	Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:44 pm    Post subject: · Quote One of the selling points when I was looking for a car to replace my 96 SL1 was the odometer in the middle.  I just liked it.  And I too got my ION from Chapel Hill.  Now the question remains, do I go back to Marhofer for service?  Or do I stay local in Kent? The only peeve I have about the ION is a wheel bearing issue.  I've had that problem twice.  Now if I could just get a replacement gear shift knob...since mine has worn down to the plastic knob itself. _________________ I don't like a certain company so everything they do MUST be wrong, even if it's right.  And that makes me look like a bigger fool. Take a stand against coasters that hurt or kill people.  Holiday World & Knotts Berry Farm, we are watching you!
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ffejie Thunder Falls User is Offline Joined: 18 Jun 2008 Posts: 794	Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:19 pm    Post subject: · Quote Cuddy, Marhoffer is a good dealer group. I have a couple people that I know there. I have worked with in the past. They are honest and know what they are doing. If you feel comfortable with them it is a good thing.   The Ion is a good car. you have some issues like every car. You will put front stabalizer links and control arm bushings on at least once but you won't have any major engine or transmission problems usually. The engine in the ion is absolutely great!! and it was the last car with the plastic body panels!! Plus cuddy you have a friend that has 18 years of working on saturns that can help you out.
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John Peck Double Loop User is Offline Joined: 03 Jul 2007 Posts: 279 Location: Columbus, Ohio USA	Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:54 am    Post subject: · Quote ^Yuck! The odometer in the middle was one of the reasons I never looked back at the Ion. Driving is hard enough, but to take your eyes away from the road to turn your head and glance at your speed made no sense to me. Keeping your head forward and tilting your eyes down is the safest way. Some random points and replies: Saturn actually was born in 1982, but the first car available was for the 1991 model year. So, if you do the math, Saturn has been making cars since 1990, which has been 19 years. I didn't know when Pontiac began, and now I do: 1926 Here is a great article on the history of Saturn: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/saturn-cars.htm And for the record, I'm not saying that Saturn is inferior to Pontiac in terms of cars, I just feel the "name" PONTIAC and it's models are more wide-spread well-known. That's all I'm saying. Saturn definitely had a better marketing plan than any other GM Car in the 90's, which really grew the loyalty of the business, but Honda started it two decades before and continues to. I mentioned the Solstice over the Sky earlier because it has been around a few months longer and had more exposure... especially on-screen in 2007's 'Transformers'. (Though personally I like the look of the Sky better, both vehicles have had major problems with their drive systems and body hardware and integrity) And as for Olds.: GM never refreshend the brand, it became you 'fathers' car and didn't appeal to a lot of folks anymore. I'm sure it was done on purpose, (as Ford kept redesigning their Mercury Brand and GM their Buick brand) but what can you do? Oldsmobile became what it sounded like an "Old-mobile"
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CuddyTheFlash Double Loop User is Offline Joined: 14 Sep 2008 Posts: 244 Location: In the darkest corner of your mind	Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:54 am    Post subject: · Quote ^But with that centerized instrument panel, I don't have a steering wheel in my way.  I think the Toyota Echo has a similar panel, but it is much smaller.  That's one car I'd never get because of the snub-nose look to it. One thing I find utterly amazing is the change in model design with the Accord.  You still see some of the tiny-hatchback versions still running.  That tells me that Honda is a good company to go to. _________________ I don't like a certain company so everything they do MUST be wrong, even if it's right.  And that makes me look like a bigger fool. Take a stand against coasters that hurt or kill people.  Holiday World & Knotts Berry Farm, we are watching you!
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