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Skyglider Big Dipper User is Offline Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 809	Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:25 pm    Post subject: Has Cedar Fair Been Inconsistent about Geauga Lake? · Quote Did Cedar Fair lie?  If they did not, here is some stuff that it would be helpful for them to clarify (though I doubt they will).  I don’t mean to bash Cedar Fair, I just see a lot of things that, left unexplained, look bad.   The original idea for this thread comes from a post by Sohio.  A lot of it is old material, but it might be useful to discuss it in one place.   Feel free to add some inconsistencies that you are aware of.   And take a look at "Cedar Fair's Commitment to Integrity"  which says that "Cedar Fair Entertainment Company is firmly committed to the principles of honesty, integrity and fairness in all aspects of its business relationships with vendors, customers, employees, investors and others."  Did that happen here?  Some explanation would be good. http://www.cedarfair.com/ir/company/contactinfo.cfm Did Cedar Fair Lie About When the Decision to Close Geauga Lake was Made? The Statement: On Friday, September 21, 2007, Cedar Fair Director of Investor Relations Stacy Frole stated in an interview with Leon Bibb on Channel 5 that “our Board of Directors made the decision yesterday afternoon that the market demand simply isn’t there to support the park as it’s currently structured.  The decision was made to operate the park exclusively as a water park only.”   Video “Park to Close” available at http://www.newsnet5.com/news/15711326/detail.html The Inconsistencies: On Monday, September 24, the very next business day after the closing was announced and 2 business days after it was allegedly decided, deconstruction began on Dominator and Thunderhawk.  To start that quickly, arrangements to move them (including hiring a deconstruction company and making/getting approval for plans to install at their new locations) almost certainly had to be in place by September 20.   Here’s a quote from Sohio in another thread about similar issues with Planet Snoopy Sohio wrote: In the second link I found this bit very interesting... Construction (on Planet Snoopy) began in October and is now in its final stages with about a month to go. But wait a minute, how did construction begin on a new kid section at Cedar Point that is made up of Geauga Lake rides?  The decision to close GL was only made at the end of september, and if that's true that does not leave enough time to complete the planning stage, much less have construction begin. We really need to start a thread that details all the inconsistencies that keep popping up about the closure of GL. The article: http://www.sanduskyregister.com/articles/2008/04/08/front/doc47facfce6a232738988297.txt On September 16, 2007:  Bill Spehn and other Cedar Fair officials reportedly were on the last run of the Big Dipper on the final night of the 2007 season.  If no one knew the park was closing until September 20, why did they make a point of doing that? Also, Cedar Fair officials from other parks were reportedly selecting Geauga Lake rides over the summer.   If they knew the park was going to close before the end of the season, why not inform the public?  Advance notice was given at Euclid Beach, Erieview, Astroworld, the Myrtle Beach Pavilon – why not Geauga Lake?  That bothers even people who had not visited in years, but who would have taken the chance to have one last visit. Even now, an explanation of that issue would help. edits 4/28 to add "Cedar Fair's Commitment to Integrity" statement. _________________ "It's a very special ride. We want to make sure it has a proper home." Cedar Fair's Innes on Big Dipper, 12th oldest roller coaster on Earth. "There will not be a lot more work being done on the property" in 2008 said Innes. CF save BD in 09. Last edited by Skyglider on Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Skyglider Big Dipper User is Offline Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 809	Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:26 pm    Post subject: · Quote The Largest Single Capital Expenditure in History The Statement: Cedar Fair’s press release about “the new steel coaster” (Geauga Lake’s Thunderhawk) in the spring of 2008 at Michigan's Adventure: "Thunderhawk will represent the largest single ride expenditure in the history of the park." http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/10-02-2007/0004673866&EDATE= The Apparent Inconsistency: First, although it was new to Michigan’s Adventure, the way this press release is phrased could be misleading to the investing public (as opposed to park guests who may not care) which might think that a brand new coaster had been purchased.  In fact, Thunderhawk was a nine-year old coaster that was already at Geauga Lake when Cedar Fair bought it in 2004.   How could it be the largest capital expenditure in the history of Michigan’s Adventure?   If that is the truth, a clarification would help. Heck, Geauga Lake dominated Cedar Fair’s November 5, 2007 press release on its 2008 capital expenditure plans without even being mentioned, there is a lot of “new” Geauga Lake stuff that investors were told about: “Cedar Fair Announces Capital Expenditures For 2008 Season” http://www.cedarfair.com/ir/press_releases/index.cfm Last edited by Skyglider on Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Skyglider Big Dipper User is Offline Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 809	Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:29 pm    Post subject: · Quote Did Cedar Fair Mislead the Public About Not Intending to Close Geauga Lake? The Statements: April 5, 2007: Sun News (or possibly the Plain Dealer) ran an article titled "Rumors of Geauga Lake's demise 'completely untrue.'" Cedar Fair officials stated that, despite the removals of X-Flight and Steel Venom, "the rumors of the demise of Geauga Lake, or that we're slowly phasing it out, are completely untrue" and "Geauga Lake is here to stay." Late Summer 2007: Multiple people have reported hearing Bill Spehn dismiss closing and/or ride removal rumors as something that was untrue or made up by a "teenage kid" (an apparent reference to "John Wilkins" who posted rumors of massive removals in August 2007).  If you heard something like this in person, please post it, if you can. August 28, 2007: When WEWS Channel 5 ran a Geauga Lake web report titled "Will Local Amusement Park Get Rid of Coasters", the Cedar Fair response was that "it won't comment on speculation and rumors." Not an overt lie, but arguably a deceptive attempt to indicate everything was still OK, and one that may have lulled some people into passing up a last chance to visit the park. http://www.newsnet5.com/entertainment/13997817/detail.html September 13, 2007: Cedar Fair advertises "Geauga Lake" as one of the parks that a 2008 Platinum Pass can be used at in a full page ad in the Toledo Blade Thursday insert ("it will gain you admission all season long to Cedar Point, Geauga Lake, Kings Island, and every other park in the Cedar Fair chain!"). http://www.freepowerboards.com/geaugalaketoday/geaugalaketoday-about210.html September 21, 2007: Geauga Lake closing announced
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Skyglider Big Dipper User is Offline Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 809	Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:30 pm    Post subject: · Quote Does Cedar Fair Care About History? The Statement Cedar Fair recently made a big deal of the historic status of Kings Island’s 1972 Racer. It also appears (from reports that can be reconfirmed after the season starts) that Cedar Fair helped preserve “Leap the Dips” in Altoona, PA, the oldest operating wood roller coaster in the world. Heck, Cedar Fair officials were front and center in the preservation of Sandusky's 1928 "G.A. Boeckling Building": http://www.sanduskyregister.com/articles/2008/01/16/local_news/567145.txt Also, here is Cedar Fair's theme this year at King's Island: "Our theme this year is history, tradition and nostalgia,” [area manager of public relations] Helbig said. “We’re getting back to being a home-grown park.”  "However guests arrive, they’re going to find changes, all of them aimed at what Helbig calls 'restoring the park’s history.'" (Keep in mind King's Island opened in 1972, Geauga Lake in 1888.) http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080418/ENT/304180042/1083/LIFE The Inconsistency: The 1925 Big Dipper is the 12th oldest operating wood roller coaster on the planet and the 7th oldest in the U.S. (it ain’t SBNO until the season starts, in my book).  It is also the oldest in Ohio, as I was reminded by Cedar Fair’s spiel given by the park’s excellent 2007 Big Dipper ride operators last September.  It is also important as one of the last 13 surviving coasters designed by John A. Miller, a key figure in the history of roller coaster design.   Yet, every single statement by Cedar Fair about Big Dipper since its closing has been about relocating it.  Does that respect history?  Well, actually according to Cedar Fair, a relocated coaster is a new coaster, so maybe not: "A coaster is a different ride when it is in a different location." (Michigan's Adventure General Manager Camille Jourden-Mark explaining why Geauga Lake's relocated 1998 Thunderhawk is "absolutely being marketed as a new ride.") http://blog.mlive.com/grpress/2008/02/hopes_high_for_michigan_advent.html edited 4/22 to add King's Island quotes Last edited by Skyglider on Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:15 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Skyglider Big Dipper User is Offline Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 809	Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:32 pm    Post subject: · Quote “Geauga Lake Lost Money for Cedar Fair” The Statement: In the years Cedar Fair that owned Geauga Lake it never turned a profit, we are told. The Inconsistencies: May be true, but that is not the whole story. Was the problem Geauga Lake or the decisions made in running it? The bottom line is if Geauga Lake lost money, it appears that Cedar Fair made some bad business decisions 1) in paying what it did to buy it and/or 2) running it the way they did (removing the marine animals, removing popular rides like X-Flight, $10 parking, decaying structures in the “front window” on Route 43, promising to post Oktoberfest information online in August but not doing so until the verge of the event September, using a single ride op to staff 2-3 kiddie rides, setting food prices too high (unlike Kennywood), losing the union picnics, banning outside food, running a poll on bringing back Geauga Dog and then ignoring the results). To be fair, Cedar Fair inherited some other problems from Six Flags, but there are some very experienced people in Sandusky, they should have known that going in.   It seems to me when Cedar Fair officials talk about their losses in 2007, they are trying to place the blame squarely on Geauga Lake.  But as the Motley Fool pointed out in "Roller Coaster Regrets, " even without the $1 per share charge for the Geauga Lake restructuring, Cedar Fair's 2007 profits would have been below 2006.   http://www.fool.com/investing/dividends-income/2008/02/07/roller-coaster-regrets.aspx The $54.9 million “loss” Cedar Fair recently reported is an accounting write off some of the $145 million they spent to buy GL.  There will be deconstruction costs on top of that (those were $20 million at Astroworld).  The bottom line is that costs that Cedar Fair would not have if Geauga Lake were still open are being used to justify its closure.   (Where is Chris Carlyle when we need him, he could explain this part of it much better than I can.) Last edited by Skyglider on Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:49 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Skyglider Big Dipper User is Offline Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 809	Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:33 pm    Post subject: · Quote Did Cedar Fair Lie about the Running of the Bulls? The Statement:   Back in early November, Cedar Fair spokesperson Alexakos denied the rumors (I thought it was Cedar Fair policy not to do that?) that bulldozers were on the verge of leveling the park.   "There's no plans to bulldoze a section of the park at this time" she said. http://www.sanduskyregister.com/articles/2007/11/13/front/477561.txt The Inconsistencies: OK, all I have are rumors here, but feel free to post what you know.   The same Sandusky Register article reports that ACE representatives had "heard from 'inside people' that bulldozers are slated to clear out the rest of the park sometime next week." RideOps90’s just posted a similar statement that he heard from a worker indicating that the plan was to level everything in the park except the wood coasters, and that everything would have been cleared by now except that the plan changed.
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Skyglider Big Dipper User is Offline Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 809	Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:35 pm    Post subject: · Quote Is Cedar Fair Telling the Truth About Being Open to Considering the ACE Plan/ A Purchaser that Will Keep Rides on the Site? I am not an ACE member, I’m just a kid who grew up going to Geauga Lake who would love to see that plan brought to life, and someone who cares about Ohio’s history.  What I perceive as disrespect for Ohio’s history really bothers me.   The Statement: On March 27, statement’s by Cedar Fair’s Mark Edward gave us a glimmer of hope that Cedar Fair might consider land bids that would involve keeping the Big Dipper and/or other rides on site: http://www.cleveland.com/westgeaugasun/news/index.ssf?/base/news-0/1206553614153110.xml&coll=4 “At the end of May, we're going to look through the bids and decide which option is best for the company and the community," he said. Any company or nonprofit can bid for a portion of the land or the entire acreage that the amusement park sat on, Edwards said. Cedar Fair also plans to hold an auction of remaining rides, attractions, and equipment on June 17 and 18." “At this time, the auction would include the Big Dipper, a 1925 wooden roller coaster, that was the oldest coaster in operation in Ohio until the park closed. However, the list of auction items will change depending on the type of proposal Cedar Fair officials accept at the end of May, Edwards said. For example, another amusement park company could put in a proposal to purchase the land and the rides, or a housing development company could put in a proposal to purchase all of the property but none of the rides.  "We aren't really going to have a good idea of what will and what won't be for sale until early June," he said.” The Potential Inconsistency: I hope Mr. Edward’s statement represents a sincere clarification of Cedar Fair’s true intent to seriously consider land bids that involve keeping the Big Dipper on site. But some might think that it is untruthful PR spin to hide the fact that Cedar Fair is dead set against any plan to preserve the Big Dipper on site.   Virtually every other public statement Cedar Fair has made about the Big Dipper, even after the ACE plan was announced, has indicated a consistent intent to sell and relocate the Big Dipper, and to not even consider preserving it where it stands.   Begin with the fact that Cedar Fair has had the Big Dipper up for sale and relocation with Martin & Vleminckx since last November and Intermark since last December, long before the original March 28 or the extended May 23 due dates for bids on the land.   Ms. Frole “would not comment” when new reports broke last November about the ACE vision of preserving the Big Dipper on site along with a ballroom museum and a carousel as part of an entertainment/retail “lifestyle center”: http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/geauga/1194860006146820.xml&coll=2 Ms. Frole’s response after the Sandusky Register ran Senator Brown’s letter asking Cedar Fair to consider preserving the Big Dipper at Geauga Lake: "In response to the senator's letter, Cedar Fair spokeswoman Stacy Frole said nothing has changed. The Big Dipper and two other roller coasters are listed for sale.   "We currently have the Big Dipper up for sale. Any interested party has the opportunity to buy those assets," she said. "We're doing every effort to move these rides to other locations where they might have value." http://www.sanduskyregister.com/articles/2007/12/05/front/507529.txt As recently as March 24, the Plain Dealer reported that “according to Bryan Edwards of Cedar Fair, any remaining rides, equipment and other assets from Geauga Lake including (if they do not sell before then) the Big Dipper, Raging Wolf Bobs and Villain will be auctioned on June 17-18, 2008.”  No mention of any possibility for keeping them on site. http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/03/geauga_lakes_wooden_coasters_c.html I hope they seriously consider plans to keep the Big Dipper on site.  Both Ohio and Cedar Fair will benefit.
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Dominator56 Villain User is Offline Joined: 18 Jul 2007 Posts: 1259 Location: Akron, Ohio	Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:11 am    Post subject: · Quote Good thread. I know there were probally some inconsistancies with dominator as well. Which is similiar to the thunderhawk example above.  I was telling someone they are marketing thunderhawk as new when it actually wasn't _________________ Geauga Lake I will miss you!
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Skyglider Big Dipper User is Offline Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 809	Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:43 pm    Post subject: · Quote Dominator56 wrote: Good thread. I know there were probally some inconsistancies with dominator as well. Which is similiar to the thunderhawk example above.  I was telling someone they are marketing thunderhawk as new when it actually wasn't Here are some sections of the the November 5, 2008 Cedar Fair press release that talk about the "new" rides like Dominator.  I can understand that park guests may not care where the "new" rides came from, but the investing public might well care to know that these are used rides, not new rides as the press release seems to imply. http://www.cedarfair.com/ir/press_releases/index.cfm CEDAR FAIR ANNOUNCES CAPITAL EXPENDITURES FOR 2008 SEASON SANDUSKY, OHIO, November 5, 2007 – Cedar Fair Entertainment Company (NYSE:  FUN), a publicly traded leader in regional amusement parks, water parks and active entertainment, has announced plans for a record high $88 million in exciting new family attractions, roller coasters, thrill rides and general improvements for the 2008 season at its parks across the United States and in Canada. . . Dominator "Rising 161 feet above the landscape and commanding the sky at Kings Dominion in Doswell, Virginia will be Dominator, the park’s 14th roller coaster.  Riders will experience a sense of freedom and excitement as their feet dangle freely below on “floorless” coaster trains that travel just inches above the steel track.  At 4,210 feet, Dominator will be the longest floorless roller coaster in the world and will feature five inversions, including the tallest roller coaster vertical loop ever built." Steel Venom "At Dorney Park in Allentown, Pennsylvania, guests will “be possessed” by VooDoo, an inverted steel scream machine that launches riders both forward and backward underneath a 185-foot-tall, U-shaped steel track.  VooDoo riders will twist 360 degrees as they ascend one end of the massive structure while rising at a 90-degree angle in reverse at the opposite end."   Thunderhawk "The Thunderhawk roller coaster will swoop down at Michigan’s Adventure in Muskegon, Michigan and will be the largest capital expenditure in the park’s history. Riders will be suspended from a steel track as they climb a 105-foot-tall lift hill and drop 86 feet to the ground at a top speed of 50 mph.  Thunderhawk’s swooping turns, heart-pounding inversions and the nothing-below-your-chair-but-air trains will thrill guests all summer long." Kidsworks Rides "The Company’s flagship park, Cedar Point in Sandusky, Ohio, will debut several attractions geared toward family-friendly fun. A brand-new children’s area, featuring seven rides and a family lounge with quiet areas for feeding, resting and changing, will replace the former Peanuts Playground."   Texas Twister "Finally, at California’s Great America in Santa Clara, California, guests will flip for a new thrill ride that will give a whole new meaning to “head-over-heels.”  Riders will be seated stadium-style in two rows of 20 riders each on a gondola that rotates 360 degrees.  The gondola will lift off the ground as it’s flipped, turned and tumbled during its ride cycle."
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afrmom@comcast.net Riptide Run User is Offline Joined: 28 Dec 2007 Posts: 377	Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:31 pm    Post subject: · Quote Quote: Kidsworks Rides "The Company’s flagship park, Cedar Point in Sandusky, Ohio, will debut several attractions geared toward family-friendly fun. A brand-new children’s area, featuring seven rides and a family lounge with quiet areas for feeding, resting and changing, will replace the former Peanuts Playground."   New kids area it says but doesn't say new rides. New doesn't mean it is brand new. They mean new by a new ride to the park. _________________ Where are you May 10th?!?
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Sohio Splash Landing User is Offline Joined: 01 Nov 2007 Posts: 104 Location: Nashville, TN	Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:09 pm    Post subject: · Quote Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) brand-new [bran-noo, -nyoo, brand-] –adjective entirely new. By definition, Planet Snoopy cannot be brand-new, as that would require the rides themselves to be newly made, not transplanted from Geauga Lake. _________________
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coasterdad Site Admin User is Offline Joined: 01 Jul 2007 Posts: 1667	Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:52 pm    Post subject: · Quote The kids area is not new because they already had one the rides are not new they came from GL. Its just CF and their carefully one the edge of untruthfulness nonsense. They should use the word refurbished but thats not in the CF vocabulary. _________________ Greed is what caused GL's demise and that just makes me sick. Lets do what we can to rat out Kinzel - hes a snake. In the end the truth will come out and we will then see whos laughing at who.
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dsloban Thunder Falls User is Offline Joined: 19 Jul 2007 Posts: 795	Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:39 am    Post subject: Has cf been · Quote This whole Geauga Lake think is been inconsistent! I mean nothing is known to the public until it is too late to do anything about it! I know I am thankful that I had a season pass and enjoyed it 22 times and thanks to the people who gave us a heads about about my favorite rides, I was able to enjoy them right up to the last day of the park being open. I know that I am also happy that I have my memories and my pictures that can't be taken away from me. I can't believe it still that in the next month when our parks' start to open, that Geauga Lake will not and that it is baing destroyed as we talk on this forum and there is nothing we can do to stop it! That really upsets me! I know I do love Cedarpoint too, but it seems so strang to me that I won't have both parks to enjoy! I loved how different the two parks were. Thats what I liked about them! Very sad!
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Skyglider Big Dipper User is Offline Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 809	Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:20 am    Post subject: · Quote afrmom@comcast.net wrote: New kids area it says but doesn't say new rides. New doesn't mean it is brand new. They mean new by a new ride to the park. What if they specifically said the rides were "all new"? For example, this Cedar Fair press release from yesterday titled "California's Great America Auctions First Ride on All-New 'Firefall' to Benefit Local Santa Clara Charity." According to the release, "Available seats will be auctioned off for the first public ride on FireFall."   Don't get me wrong, Cedar Fair is doing something good here by supporting charity. And the ride, Geauga Lake's Texas Twister, is in a new location with new theming that sounds interesting. But to call a ride that first operated in 1993 "all new" seems to be going too far.         http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/04-10-2008/0004790774&EDATE=
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Sohio Splash Landing User is Offline Joined: 01 Nov 2007 Posts: 104 Location: Nashville, TN	Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:04 pm    Post subject: · Quote Raging Wolf Bobs Derailment On June 16th, 2007, Raging Wolf Bobs suffered a derailment.  There were no serious injuries, and the coaster sat idle for the rest of the season.  It was only the 22nd day of the season, with 78 more days to go, yet no apparent attempt was made to get Raging Wolf Bobs repaired.  It appears that management knew the ride side would be closing and money spent to repair the ride would be wasted. _________________
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