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amusementpark7 Splash Landing User is Offline Joined: 13 Apr 2008 Posts: 132	Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:11 pm    Post subject: Cedar Fair Reports Increased Attendance and Revenue in 2008 · Quote Cedar Fair reported third quarter results and attendance and revenue results through the first nine months of 2008.  The entire press release can be found on their website. Some important highlights...(on a same-park basis through September) revenues increased 3% ($24.7 million), net income increased $58 million, attendance increased 5% (nearly 850,000 visits), and in-park spending decreased by less than 1%. Also, I thought it was important to mention that the northern region parks reported the largest increase in revenues and at the end of the third quarter, Cedar Fair has $71.7 million cash on hand compared to $37.0 million at the end of the third quarter in 2007. October results.....revenues increased 3% compared to October of 2007, with a 10% increased in attendance and 6% decrease in in-park spending.   These results are excellent for Cedar Fair.  They had a lot of adversity this year with the economic recession, the credit crisis, and all the protests and boycotts levied against them because of the Geauga Lake restructuring.  No matter your opinion on Cedar Fair or its' management, these results call for giving credit where credit is due.  They whethered the storm, stuck to their management philosophies and came out having a very good year, especially given the economic climate.  With so many companies falling behind in revenues and profits during this economic challenge, everyone should happy that Cedar Fair had a great year in both attendance and revenues espeically because they employ thousands of Americans with full-time, good paying careers.
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doubleloop Splash Landing User is Offline Joined: 04 Jul 2007 Posts: 110	Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:15 pm    Post subject: · Quote Couple of points, nowhere is the word profit mentioned, in park revenue is down which means less income for dick, and you seem to forget that most CF employees are horribly paid and mistreated and a good portion of their workforce comes from abroad. The well paid person is you. _________________ Confidentiality is telling one person at a time. Don't let anyone steal the cheese from your sandwich!
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coasterdad Site Admin User is Offline Joined: 01 Jul 2007 Posts: 1676	Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:29 am    Post subject: · Quote You have to agree CF is the best at pointing out what little good the company did while never bringing up the HUGE mess they are in. It is interesting that the reaction to this "great news" was a 60 cent drop in the stock price on Friday on a day when the market overall was going up. Could it be that the analysts are concerned that capital expenditures are dropping to $62 million, down from $88 million last year? Could it be because many stories about these "great" results had the headline "Cedar Fair misses 3Q estimates" and noted that third-quarter net income per share was $1.65 per share while Wall Street was expecting $2.33 per share? Could it be that these "great" results were not so great as "Net revenues dropped to $312.6 million from $320.4 million" and "investors had predicted the amusement park owner would do better"? http://www.bizjournals.com/losangeles/stories/2008/11/03/daily22.html Also, by the end of the year, they are only up 2% in attendance. What happened, I thought they were up 3% through Labor Day and were supposed to have a "great" fall? Per capita spending in the parks is starting to drop, down to $40.28 in the third quarter and an even lower $40.15 in October, which is a 6% drop from last October. That is not a good sign for a company that has always relied on ever-increasing in-park spending, maybe the high prices and economy are catching up. Also, it was funny that during the conference call they did not have any numbers available for 2009 season pass sales, which started in August. I wonder how those are going? Finally all this talk about EBDITA and cash flow overlooks the fact that they have some significant debt repayment obligations and targets coming up in the next few years. If they violate any loan covenants, there goes the dividend (or "distribution", whatever). So maybe it's not a disaster, but its hardly an outstanding year. _________________ Greed is what caused GL's demise and that just makes me sick. Lets do what we can to rat out Kinzel - hes a snake. In the end the truth will come out and we will then see whos laughing at who.
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amusementpark7 Splash Landing User is Offline Joined: 13 Apr 2008 Posts: 132	Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:30 pm    Post subject: · Quote Attendance was up 5%.  You can't compare the company's structure from last year to this year.  They have one less amusement park, and yet attendance was still up 2% from last year.  If you exclude Geauga Lake in 2007 and WWK in 2008, attendance was up 5%.   Secondly, if I had to choose between attendance being up 5% or in-park spending being down 1%, I'd definitely prefer an increase in attendance.  For too long, Cedar Fair had a drop in attendance and increase in in-park spending and now the trend has reversed, and I think that's a good thing.   In regards to your comment about the fall season....their October attendance was up over 10% from last year. I'd be willing to bet season pass sales are very, very down for 2009 because of the economy.  It looks as the economy is going to be just as bad next summer, so it'll be interesting to see how Cedar Fair can deal with that. Cedar Fair had a great year considering the economic climate, the credit crunch and most importantly all the boycotts and protests because of the situation at Geauga Lake.  Well, actually it looks like not too many people cared enough to boycott Cedar Fair parks.
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Ethel Lipschittz Beaver Land Mine Ride User is Offline Joined: 18 Mar 2008 Posts: 9	Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:14 pm    Post subject: · Quote Due to threats, I will be a spineless coward and remove what I originally wrote and go back to hiding behind a screen name like others. Last edited by Ethel Lipschittz on Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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coasterdad Site Admin User is Offline Joined: 01 Jul 2007 Posts: 1676	Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:17 pm    Post subject: · Quote AP7, just like CF, seems to point out the small positives that occurred at CF this season. He never mentions what really is happening behind the scenes. I would be interested in hearing what the increase in attendance was without the stolen corporate picnic crowd. A crowd they basically gave the gate away to get them in. This is the real information I want to see, until then the latest news is just a bunch of spun numbers as is the case with all CF public press releases. Another interesting fact is that it seems like Canada's Wonderland did the best in the northern region, not Cedar Point. They keep talking about attendance numbers "excluding Geauga Lake" but if Cedar Point and Geauga Lake really were in the same market like some said, why didn't the Point see a massive attendance increase without GL around? They should have been up 10 to 20 instead of just staying about even with last year or slightly up, even with all those giveaway tickets for former GL groups and coupon incentives which CP never had in the past. As far as October goes, Kinzel said in the conference call they saw more people taking advantage of season passes in the fall. So maybe attendance was up but in the long run that means less revenue at the gate and less in-park spending since passholders spend less. Another not so good trend for CF no matter how you spin it. _________________ Greed is what caused GL's demise and that just makes me sick. Lets do what we can to rat out Kinzel - hes a snake. In the end the truth will come out and we will then see whos laughing at who. Last edited by coasterdad on Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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CuddyTheFlash Beaver Land Mine Ride User is Offline Joined: 14 Sep 2008 Posts: 31 Location: In the darkest corner of your mind	Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:23 am    Post subject: · Quote Coasterdad, I hope you didn't just lump me with AP7.  I've been lurking these forums since nearly February.  I like CP as much as any other CP fan, but I haven't been to the park since before TTD.  And coasterdad, if you didn't lump me with AP7, then I apologize for my accusation. Ethel, most of my friends call me Cuddy because of NTN, or when I play those mega-touch machines in bars, or if they really know me.  Its called a nick-name.  I can't think of any forum I've been on where I was dumb enough to use my real name. But Ethel whatever, if you are going to accuse people of hiding behind names, get on Coasterdad's ass too (no offense to you CD). Ethel, why don't you send me a nice private message.  You can meet me personally in Kent.  And you can learn my real name. _________________ Chances are...
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Skyglider Big Dipper User is Offline Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 812	Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: Cedar Fair Reports Increased Attendance and Revenue in 2 · Quote amusementpark7 wrote: With so many companies falling behind in revenues and profits during this economic challenge, everyone should happy that Cedar Fair had a great year in both attendance and revenues espeically because they employ thousands of Americans with full-time, good paying careers. No doubt that no layoffs is a good thing, are you sure none are coming? And what about the rumor that season bonuses were cut 66% this year - just a wild rumor, or is there some basis to it? The picture is not as rosy as the spin would suggest. You mention more cash on hand. The flip side to more cash on hand is less capital expenditures for new attractions, down from $88 million last year to $62 million this year. This is an industry where attendance often depends on rolling out new attractions every year or so. Whatever the reasons for it, I would be concerned about capital expenditures going down. And as Coasterdad pointed out, Cedar Fair did miss Wall Street's expectations of earnings per share by almost 30%. The analysts were expecting earnings of $2.33 per unit and only got $1.65. That can't be good for the unit price. And this guy on the yahoo finance boards lays out a pretty good argument using Cedar Fair's own numbers that it is going to have difficulty paying the dividend as early at the end of 2009 based on conditions or "covenants" in their loans if they don't see dramatic improvements next year that are not likely in this economy:   http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_C/threadview?m=tm&bn=7449&tid=10140&mid =10140&tof=4&frt=2 And remember, as Kinzel has made a  point of emphasizing, this year's "good" results had a lot to do with the good weather. What happens if the weather is not so good next summer and fall? So do you still think Kinzel should go? http://www.freepowerboards.com/geaugalaketoday/geaugalaketoday-about1240-0-asc-15.html amusementpark7 wrote: I agree with "you people" Kinzel has overstayed his welcome.  It would be best for the whole company if he and probably Falfas left.   http://www.freepowerboards.com/geaugalaketoday/posting.php?mode=quote&p=22517 amusementpark7 wrote: I do think Dick Kinzel has done a very good job in his capacity as CEO of the company.  I just think it's time to move on.  He's been the CEO for over 20 years.  I'm not saying bad or mean things about the man, just saying that in my opinion, I think it would benefit the company to get some fresh faces and new ideas in executive management. Last edited by Skyglider on Sun Nov 09, 2008 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Skyglider Big Dipper User is Offline Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 812	Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: Cedar Fair Reports Increased Attendance and Revenue in 2 · Quote amusementpark7 wrote: Cedar Fair reported third quarter results and attendance and revenue results through the first nine months of 2008.  The entire press release can be found on their website. Some important highlights...(on a same-park basis through September) revenues increased 3% ($24.7 million), net income increased $58 million, attendance increased 5% (nearly 850,000 visits), and in-park spending decreased by less than 1%. . . . October results.....revenues increased 3% compared to October of 2007, with a 10% increased in attendance and 6% decrease in in-park spending.   Except the overall picture is slightly less outstanding. Says me? No. Richard Kinzel: "Through the end of the third quarter our parks entertained a record 20.0 million visitors, up 2% (402,000 visits) from this time last year. During this same period average in-park guest per capita spending was down less than one percent to $40.28 and out-of-park revenues were comparable to last year at $94.0 million." Here is the entire release: http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/11-06-2008/0004919691&EDATE= Remember, they were up 3% in overall 2008 attendance through Labor Day, and year-to-date per capita spending was $20.24 in early September. Here's the official release 9/9/08 about results through Labor Day: http://www.cedarfair.com/ir/press_releases/index.cfm "Cedar Fair Entertainment Company . . . today reported that its 2008 revenues through Labor Day increased approximately $21 million, or 3%, to $852 million when compared with the same period a year ago.  During this time, attendance rose 3%, or 547,000 visits, while average in-park guest spending, at $40.24, and out-of-park revenues, at $87 million, were comparable to last year." Yet at the end of the Third Quarter in late September we end up with year-to-date per capita spending of $40.28, 4 cents higher than a few weeks earlier, but only a 2% increase, not 3%, in 2008 attendance.  Was there really bad attendance in September (but a lot of people spending money) or is this yet another example of spinning the numbers (to the extent they can) to minimize any bad news? The trend in October according to Kinzel was more passholders attending and per capital spending down to $40.15 (which is a 3.2% drop from the 2008 average through the end of September and is down 6% from last October).  Neither of these trends bodes well for 2009 if they keep up. _________________ "It's a very special ride. We want to make sure it has a proper home." Cedar Fair's Innes on Big Dipper, 12th oldest roller coaster on Earth. "There will not be a lot more work being done on the property" in 2008 said Innes. CF save BD in 09. Last edited by Skyglider on Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
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IBEW_Sparky Beaver Land Mine Ride User is Offline Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 13	Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:52 pm    Post subject: · Quote As an occasional KI visitor in 08, let me add that the "increaed revenue" that was seen is with no doubt due to the asanine increase in food prices throughout the park.  The one single good value is the Wings Buffet... granted $15 for a buffet isnt spectacular, but in the grand scheme of park food it is.  Also, at least in KIs case the "increased attendance" is due to the park packers they used to create such artificial inflated numbers (Robbie Kneivel jump which he would not have made had the ramp not extended over the last two trucks, the Wallenda tight rope walk, and the Guiness Book line dance).  Those three days alone were so overly packed the line waits were just stupid.  Other than those three days, I can almost guarantee attendance was flat to slightly down.  Just two examples that show how revenues and attendance can be atrificially enhanced.
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KinzelKnew Beaver Land Mine Ride User is Offline Joined: 26 Aug 2008 Posts: 18	Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 3:36 pm    Post subject: · Quote Interesting information these folks have so easily found, isn't it Richard? All public information that can be found if anyone wanted to. Funny how well that "top notch" PR team of yours can spew out this stuff when your company really isn't doing as well as it seems. Oh, and its not just these folks here, many other industry analyst's have proved the same point, and I don't think they know each other. It seems as though your press releases aren't to be believed any more, because as we all they are just a "spin" on numbers as they so eloquently put it.
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Skyglider Big Dipper User is Offline Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 812	Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:01 am    Post subject: · Quote amusementpark7 wrote: Attendance was up 5%.  You can't compare the company's structure from last year to this year.  They have one less amusement park, and yet attendance was still up 2% from last year.  If you exclude Geauga Lake in 2007 and WWK in 2008, attendance was up 5%.   That is a lie. I know the press release says that, but the numbers do not work out. The release says: "This increase is a result of a 5% increase of 849,000 visits, in attendance to 19.9 million visits . . . ." 19,900,000 million (attendance in 2008) minus 849,000 (increase from 2007) is 19,051,00 (attendance in 2007). An increase of 849,000 to a base of 19,051,000 is a 4.456% increase, not 5%. If you are going to round 4.456%, you round it down to 4% in most places, not up to 5%. If that makes 5% in Sandusky, I have $445.60 in worn currency that I would like to exchange for $500 in new bills. _________________ "It's a very special ride. We want to make sure it has a proper home." Cedar Fair's Innes on Big Dipper, 12th oldest roller coaster on Earth. "There will not be a lot more work being done on the property" in 2008 said Innes. CF save BD in 09. Last edited by Skyglider on Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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VekomaRulz Beaver Land Mine Ride User is Offline Joined: 09 Nov 2007 Posts: 38	Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:56 am    Post subject: · Quote amusementpark7 wrote: I'd be willing to bet season pass sales are very, very down for 2009 because of the economy.  It looks as the economy is going to be just as bad next summer, so it'll be interesting to see how Cedar Fair can deal with that. I wonder if that is the reason for lower 2009 SP pricing or if 2008 sales were lower. If you bought the pass by November 1st, Dorney had a special rate of $85.99 compared to the early rate for last year of $96. A $10 decrease seems like a huge price cut. coasterdad wrote: Also, by the end of the year, they are only up 2% in attendance. What happened, I thought they were up 3% through Labor Day and were supposed to have a "great" fall? I guess CF doesn't realize you can't have a great fall if your parks are closed half of the fall season (of when the park is supposed to be open). Dorney was open a grand total of 4 days in September. Great Adventure was open 9 days the same month. I went to Great Adventure 3 times that month and Dorney 0 times. Oh yeah not really related to this thread but I thought people might find this interesting about how CF treats their customers. Dorney has no metal detectors, and no bag searches the whole year. For Haunt, they actually had guards at every ticket entrance and were using handheld metal detectors. They made every person, stand with their arms spread out and move the metal detector all over, arms, legs, back, and made you turn around and repeat the process. Then if you had a belt on they asked to see the buckle. Am I going to an amusement park or prison? At least at Six Flags, you walk through a metal detector and you are done.
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coasterdad Site Admin User is Offline Joined: 01 Jul 2007 Posts: 1676	Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:03 am    Post subject: · Quote We all know the FOKers will be here defending that .5 percent error. Saying things like wow, big deal, that hardly makes a difference. Oh but it does make a difference when its someplace other than the park they wanted to destroy. Hey that number that represents the increase in attendance, ummm what was it, 849,000 additional guests? Interesting, when that number of guests was at GL it was insignificant and they closed the park. I guess the latest press release has been proven to be simply a ploy to let people think they are doing better than they are. Its quite obvious that CF is in some big trouble right now, the FUN is only beginning. Anyone want to guess who AP7 really is? _________________ Greed is what caused GL's demise and that just makes me sick. Lets do what we can to rat out Kinzel - hes a snake. In the end the truth will come out and we will then see whos laughing at who.
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Skyglider Big Dipper User is Offline Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 812	Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 2:06 am    Post subject: · Quote Here is another interesting tidbit. Colleen Murphy told Crain's Cleveland Business that Wildwater Kingdom's 2008 attendance was “substantially more” than 100,000. http://clevelandbusiness.com/article/20080922/FREE/309229926 Well substantially more must be something that can be rounded down to 100,000 because the November 6, 2008 press release reports these numbers: http://www.cedarfair.com/ir/press_releases/index.cfm Total 2008 attendance through end of September: 20 million Total 2008 attendace for same period excluding GL's WWK: 19.9 million That means the 2008 attendance for Geauga Lake's Wildwater Kingdom was right around 100,000. _________________ "It's a very special ride. We want to make sure it has a proper home." Cedar Fair's Innes on Big Dipper, 12th oldest roller coaster on Earth. "There will not be a lot more work being done on the property" in 2008 said Innes. CF save BD in 09.
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