RugbyFirst

[Bcubed]

Ok this has the chance of being bigger than any thread about BOD.

I have in the last 2 weeks sat through and watched 360 minutes of Rugby.

So to have some others who infest,...ah ....regularly visit this site.

So can anyone honestly say they have a clue whats going on at the break down?????































I am waiting folks...........

Seriously, there were some really good example in all three tests where the slo-mo camera replays show the player being tackled and going to ground and clinging onto the ball like a friggin limpet. Then the player on his feet who, by my limited understanding of the rules, has all the rights to the ball gets pushed off his feet and pinged for playing the ball while off his feet. WTF

This happened in all three games that I could see to some degree but was especially bad in the Aussie/France & Lions/Boks games (probably cos they are all dirty cheating feckers anyways ).

Did anyone else notice this or am I simply sleep deprived???

Sensible answers only please (cos as you can see I am such a sensible fellow)

[smartcooky]

I agree. There are a few players who are recidivist offenders at holding on to the ball when they are on the ground.... Stirling Mortlock, Lachlan Turner, Ma'a Nonu, Vincent Clerc, Cedric Heymans, Mike Tindall among a large group of notables.

One of the biggest problems with the breakdown is that the applicable Laws change in fractions of a second. In the space of 1½ to 2 seconds, the rights and obligations of different players can change several times. The formulators of the ELV's wanted to simplify this by allowing the use of Hands in the Ruck, and anyone who saw the ARC competition (as I did) will know that it worked brilliantly; there were almost NO breakdown problems at all.

Unfortunately, some backward thinking Luddites who have a vested interest in NOT having Rugby Union as a flowing open game, mainly because they don't build players with the necessary skills (which by the way, is why they have to import them from elsewhere) would rather see Rugby as a game which staggers and stammers from one set piece to the next, used their considerable political and financial clout in an orchestrated conspiracy with others to prevent this happening. If you want to blame anyone for the CURRENT shambles that is the breakdown as its stands today, you can level it fairly and squarely at these Luddites.

However, if you want to go back further and determine who ruined the breakdown in the first place, look no further than the politically correct liberal wankers that arranged for the to killing of the art of rucking. When we had REAL rucking, we didn't have players clinging onto the ball like a limpet, because they ended up with broken fingers from getting a shoeing.

[Bcubed]

Er Cookie ........

Might I dirrect your attention to my Sig

Clearly I have a vested interest here.

However on more than one occaion last night I heard the ref yelling , "Hands off Green, hands off Green 7" and lo and behold green 7 stands up from the .......er .....ruck....... with the ball in his hands and passes it off to one of his team (directly in front of the ref) who holds his hands up and looks at the disbelieving opposition players and says "Open Play" or some such thing.

Same in the Aussie France game. On one occasion France were on attack. Player tackled, goes to ground, ruck developes, ball is clearly at the rear with the Half Back looking for options when suddenly George Smith breaks free from the ruck with the ball in his hands.

WTF.

To get the ball he must have picked it up with his hands, and given that it was right at the French side of the ruck he either drove through 10 or so players to get there (although from memory he might have been the tackler) or simply stood up and picked up the ball,

but I thought HANDS WERE NOT ALLOWED IN THE RUCK!!!!!

And it was a ruch cos there were at least 4 players from both side there.

[Bcubed]

Man am I having problems today with these posts. Already replied to this but .....nada. Its gone into cyber space somewhere.

So lets try again shall we.

Cookie , might I respectfully draw your attention to my sig. My views on Rucking should be pretty clear by now.

As to last night.

On one occasion the ref was yelling "Hands out Green, Hands out Green" and yet seconds later the Bok player stands up with the ball in his hands and passes it off to one of his team mates. The LIONS players stared at the ref in disbelief and he simply shugged and said "EZ free play....its OK"

WTF

If it was free play why was he calling for hands off? And yes I have considered that it might have been another green player (who was off his feet) that he was yelling at, but I think he used a number which match that of the player who ended up with the ball.

In the Aussie France game there was an occasion where France were on attack and one of their players was tackled and went to ground. A ruck formed and the ball came back to the French side. The half back took a moment to look arround and then George Smith breaks away with the ball. The ball did not come out the back I am sure and even the commentators thought he must have infringed to get possession.

All this right in front of the ref who does nothing.

[Bcubed]

See what I mean

Cookie delete my double posts please

[Grendel]

Hi

I'm new on this board, and as I'm from France, I hope my english isn't too bad.

I believe the breakdowns are one of the most annoying problems in Rugby ... depending on the referee, the teams or the players involved, you can have the ball released by the tackeld player immediately or after one or two loooongs seconds at least.

Watching some old stuff on Youtube, in particular great moments of the welsh '70s (JPR Williams, Gareth Ewdards, Gerald Davies, ... wow), I thought the best would be to get back to the rules that applied on those days : the tackled player releases the ball once his knees touch the ground, period.

Thirty or more years ago, that could often lead to games constantly inerrupted by the referee, who had to restart the play with a scrum, because teams weren't prepared as they are now, in terms of strategy and technique ; I think that nowadays, with all the professionalism, players would adapt, and we would have clean games.

Talking of the scrum : what do you think of the sequence "crunch - pause - touch - engage" ? Does it really work ?

[smartcooky]

Hi

I'm new on this board, and as I'm from France, I hope my english isn't too bad.

I believe the breakdowns are one of the most annoying problems in Rugby ... depending on the referee, the teams or the players involved, you can have the ball released by the tackled player immediately or after one or two loooongs seconds at least.

Watching some old stuff on Youtube, in particular great moments of the welsh '70s (JPR Williams, Gareth Ewdards, Gerald Davies, ... wow), I thought the best would be to get back to the rules that applied on those days : the tackled player releases the ball once his knees touch the ground, period.

Thirty or more years ago, that could often lead to games constantly inerrupted by the referee, who had to restart the play with a scrum, because teams weren't prepared as they are now, in terms of strategy and technique ; I think that nowadays, with all the professionalism, players would adapt, and we would have clean games.

Talking of the scrum : what do you think of the sequence "crunch - pause - touch - engage" ? Does it really work ?

Hello Grendel

Your English is just fine.

Actually a player is supposed to release the ball when the are off their feet, and this includes being on their knees. However, the the old days, players did not have the option to push, place or pass the ball. All the could do was release. Going back to that would certainly make turnovers much easier to get.

IMO 'crouch-touch-pause-engage" has simply become a countdown to the hit, effectively "3-2-1-crash". The hit has become far too important in the scrum, and has come at the expense of scrummaging technique. Scrums were a lot more stable when the players sorted the engagement out themselves.


PS Why don't you register on the forum instead of posting as a Guest, then you will be able to post in other sections of the forum?

[Grendel]

Thanks smartcooky :) .

I don't know if I'll have enough time to come back to this forum in the next weeks/months, so I'd rather wait a little while before I register, until I have a clearer view.

Coming back to the breakdowns ... of course, I must be careful not to idealize the rugby of old days : some games could be really boring as well back then.

Actually, I think the players being amateurs in those days, they respected the laws of the game better as the professional players do now. A player was tackled, he released the ball ; today, well, he tries to hold it, just a little while, so that supporting teammates can arrive and secure the ball ... That leads to what I described in my previous post.

My understandig of the breakdown/ruck situation is described with the french expression I heard when I started watching rugby on TV as a kid : "mêlée ouverte", which means "open scrum". Once the ball is released by the tackled player, and if no other one was able to pick it up without being in contact with an opponent player, then both teams fight for it in what is supposed to look like a scrum : pushing the oppoent player(s), and hooking the ball back on its own side.

Get back to that, if necessary with strict referee decisions, and we'll see, that's what I dream of.

To day I often think the set of rules we have only tries to deal with the tolerance that was left to the players, as if the IRB didn't dare say "stop the nonsense, let's play by the book".

By the way smartcooky, when you say

However, the the old days, players did not have the option to push, place or pass the ball. All the could do was release.

do you mean it was forbidden, or they just didn't consider the option for whatever reasons one can think of (no teammate around because of the tactical level of those times, no one had come to the idea yet, ...) ?

[smartcooky]

By the way smartcooky, when you say

However, the the old days, players did not have the option to push, place or pass the ball. All the could do was release.

do you mean it was forbidden, or they just didn't consider the option for whatever reasons one can think of (no teammate around because of the tactical level of those times, no one had come to the idea yet, ...) ?

No, it because it wasn't allowed in the Laws yet

15.5 JOUEUR PLAQUÉ
(a) Un joueur ne doit pas se coucher sur, au-dessus ou près du ballon pour empêcher ses
adversaires d’en prendre possession et doit essayer de libérer immédiatement le ballon
pour que le jeu puisse se poursuivre.
Sanction : coup de pied de pénalité

This Law has applied for over 100 years. As far as we are concerned this has always been the Law

(b) Un joueur plaqué doit immédiatement passer le ballon ou le lâcher. Il doit également se
relever ou s’éloigner immédiatement.
Sanction : coup de pied de pénalité

Passing the ball from the ground out of the tackle was only made legal in the late 1970's

(c) Un joueur plaqué peut lâcher le ballon en le posant au sol dans n’importe quelle direction, à
condition que cette action soit effectuée immédiatement.
Sanction : coup de pied de pénalité

Placing the ball was not legal until around 1980

(d) Un joueur plaqué peut lâcher le ballon en le poussant au sol dans n’importe quelle direction
sauf vers l’avant à condition que cette action soit effectuée immédiatement.
Sanction : coup de pied de pénalité

Pushing the ball along the ground was also not legal until around 1980


The ONLY thing the tackled player was allowed to do was to take his hands off the ball. Nothing else, especially "passing off the ground" which was an offence.

[Grendel]

Thanks for all those informations.

[Lilly]

Grendel: First of all, welcome to the forum!!!!!!, and don't worry about your english at all.
Second, I think that sequence gives it a logical organization, as far as I know about this sport, organization is a key point, and taking into account the importance of the scrum, its organization is paramount. Anyone agrees?

[bertie]

bring back rucking, leave elvs in the trash can and forget the move to diet rugby. get on with the game and punish infringments with a lack of mercy vlad the impailer would be proud of.

[Grendel]

I have a question, brought up in a french tv rugby talkshow.

It was mentioned that there is a new way of perverting the new interpretation of the breakdown situation : when a player from team A is tackled, the first defending player from team B who happens to be there may, while being on his feet, try to grab/pick up the ball, the new part being is that he (the first defending player) is allowed to do so even in there are other players from the attacking team A who bind to form a ruck.

I come to the point. I heard that there are now defending players who just put their hands on the ball, without really trying to pick it up, hoping that the tackled player won't release the ball quickly enough and will be penalised by the referee. This could be a new way to get "easy" penalties.

I would like to hear from you if this is something you noticed as well, and if so, what you think about it :) .