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Tin Man
1st Team Lucozade Drinker
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: RED AND BLUE SPLIT |
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I know it's a bit early but can anyone confirm what happens nearing the end of the summer league?
Do the winners of each group play each other to see who's the overall winner?
And so on down the order? Do the last places play to see who's last?
Do the 3rd's, 4th's etc play each other?
Can't find the format anywhere on the web site.
I need to know so I can work out when I need to peak!!! |
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honestsquash
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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Apparently there is a 2 week break at the end of the Red/Blue leagues. Then the top 2 from each league play for positions 1-4 home and away, same for 3's and 4's for 5th to 8th place and 5's and 6's for 9th to 12th place. |
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ML
World Top 5
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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Tin man, I was emailed today by Old Man with an almost identical question - the plan was to post a note on the forum so hear I am. The only thing is this is unofficial so perhaps P.C. can jump in for confirmation?
After the first 10 weeks of play the Blue and Red divisions will be split into 3 play off divisions (4 in each) to decide the overall placings.
The teams that finish 5th and 6th from Red and Blue will go into the relegation play off table. Teams finishing 3rd and 4th (again from both Red and Blue) will go into a middle table (otherwise known as the safety table as no chance of going down). Leaving the top 2 teams from Red and Blue to battle for the league title.
Each 'playoff' division [of 4 teams] will play each opposing team twice (3 at home and 3 away) to decide their overall league position.
This would have meant that every team will play 16 games throughout the season.
What I love so much about this system is that everyone's got something to play for and after the 10 weeks the league isn't already won or lost. I think the relegation battle will be awesome!
There was talk of a two week break at the point of splitting but I'm not sure if this is to be the case.
Please feel to respond with questions and I'll do my best to answer. |
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Paul jnr
England Team Player
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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"What I love so much about this system is that everyone's got something to play for and after the 10 weeks the league isn't already won or lost. I think the relegation battle will be awesome!"
...yeah, it'll be nice for Biggin Hill to have something to play for!  |
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over the hill
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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Careful PJ, remember your club hasn't played them yet  |
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ML
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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Gary and the Priory committee are regularly reminding us that these are our rules and as long as we all (or the majority) agree to them, we can propose change.
Well there's a couple of loopholes that need (in my opinion) to be shut before they get abused or further abused. They relate to bringing in ringers and therefore not giving a true reflection of the team's composite. I appreciate people might say that's rich coming from me (Biggin Hill) but believe it or not, we're trying to put out a regular strength team all the way throughout the season rather than just for one off matches. As the rules stand, it's my opinion that it's all too easy to just bring in a team of pro's at the last minute to do the job on a team and not be seen again.
Before people get me wrong, I still whole heartedly support paid players but not at the cost of the above.
Here are a couple of my suggestions but I'd very much like to hear everyone's.
1) The ability to bring in 'new' players at the critical stages of the season.
This has been partly dealt with by saying these 'new' players are not eligible to play in the final 2 games of the Summer season if they have not played on at least 2 occasions. My personal opinion is that in summer season, the critical stage is after 10 games when entering the play off or perhaps 4 games from conclusion not just the last two. Obviously there might be extenuating circumstances when a team simply can't get a team out but I think it's more likely to prevent teams bringing in ringers at the last minute. Surely it would be up to the committee to view each case although I suspect there would be few.
2) Players to have each played at least twice in a season.
A rule enforced in the Sussex league to avoid a ringer stepping in for one match and then never to be seen again. It works that if this happens, the points that the player gained the team are deducted at the end of the season. If the players reason for being a 'one hit wonder' are that they were injured, moved away, gave up or suchlike, then of course the points are not deducted.
3) Newly nominated players must have recieved their nomination approval at least two weeks before they are alowed to play. This stops people getting any old Tom Dick or Harry to play at the last minute for them. Again this helps to give team consistency. |
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over the hill
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:26 am Post subject: |
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ML, I think these issues where dealt with at the AGM. Plus I think you can only put new rule change proposals at the AGM
1) The increase from 1 to 2 matches played before the final games of the season was one of the new changes you put forward and was voted in. You have to remember it's the summer holiday period and unlike the winter more people will be away at once so I don't think it should be increased further.
2) I don't agree with this point as some clubs lose players to other commitments and therefore might not be able to play. This appears to be a non point really as you have already pointed out that they can't play in the final couple of matches if they haven't played twice already.
3) Don't see how this helps as if teams are short and need to expand their squads it can make the difference between them playing with 4 players at a match when they could have 5 or having to give a walkover. Thus this reduces the amount of teams giving walkovers or playing with 4 or less players which has more of an effect on the standings in the league.
4) As you have pointed out to most of us in the past you have only played your top players against similar standard clubs/players and that it wouldn't be fair on the weaker clubs to put out your strongest players against them as neither player would get a game. That being the case it would seem no need to change any of the current rules
You told everyone at the AGM that the rule change not allowing two teams from the same club in the same division to mix and match would cause you problems fielding your BH1 and BH2 teams as you now only had about 6-7 players per team That being the case surely your not being able to nominate or have a 2 week waiting period would cause teams with smaller squads problems and hurt them.
I have to admit I find it odd you wanting to change these particular rules all of a sudden. In the past BH have played people a couple of times a season and never raised these points
I'm sure at the AGM next year you'll raise these issues and everyone will vote on them then. |
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Jolly John
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: |
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Gosh!  oth making sense. Am I dreaming?
The only thing that might seem a bit odd is the 'play-off' teams having to play the other team from the same half twice more at the end of the season. Much more sense would have been to carry forward the result of the earlier games - 'Super Six' style. However, as you say oth, all of this was up for debate in the cauldron that was the AGM . |
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ML
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: |
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OTH your response was predicted almost word for word - simply because you guys would feel the pinch most. Nothing personal of course, it's just my belief that some things will need regulations to avoid a pro player out of control spiral.
You're right, we have played players just twice in the seasons before but it doesn't mean it was right.
Can't respond in full now however I'd love to hear from Jolyon, Mark Steedon, David Lamb, Clive London, David Humpries and indeed all the other first team captains on their thoughts.
Cheers |
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honestsquash
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: |
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I think my views on paid players have been voiced to the point of boredom so I will leave that there.
However, as a compromise, I feel that a team should only be allowed to register 2 players from outside the club with only 1 allowed to play on any one night. This then allows for the league to be run as what it is meant to be, a Kent Priory league. Any shortfall over and above this should be catered for from within the club, this will guarantee that the core focus of the league will be on the clubs capabilities of producing within and not playing above the clubs means. As I said if the committee (or members who vote) want to go the way of a super league then that is another issue to discuss. At the moment I feel it is rediculous that a club teams 1st 7 nominated players are not even members.
I did ask the question a number of weeks ago whether the 2 game rule was to be at the end of phase 1 of the summer league in D1 due to the unusual scenario but had no response, what is the view of the committee? |
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over the hill
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: |
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Come on ML, what's this  after we have play one match with one pro, all of a sudden "The Pro's are spiraling out of control", you are having a laugh What pinch, it's not us who now wants the rules changed or asking the opponent not to play players
Thanks for making my day, ridiculas, we look forward to seeing you on the 11th, we are still play a core team. Our guys are happy with the team
CL plays a pro in the form of JR, and Dulwich play Tim and DS who may not get paid but that's down to Tim's relationship. Get a life, funny when your winning all is fine, now other teams are playing to your standards it's no longer 'OK'.
The Hillbillies have set the bench mark, and I think it's great for the counties clubs. Your second team plays BF, your first team plays pro's all the time and has done for the last couple of years.
I don't think we are going to win but come on
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Old Man
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: |
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Although I am not a captain, I think that the teams should only be able to use the players that they have used previously in the group stages for the final stages.
I have another thought of the final stages though.
Top three in each group go through to the final but carry the points across (super six style), and the same for the bottom three.
This would mean that every team has something to play for in the later stages, plus it would mean 16 games in total.
The nomination two weeks before rule would be better used for the winter league. It works well in the Surrey Cup. |
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over the hill
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
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HS, while I appreciate your view it was said at the AGM and before that the the div1 was basically the replacement for the KSL and not about club squash. |
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over the hill
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: |
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OM, all sensible points don't have any issues with them. |
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honestsquash
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| over the hill wrote: |
| HS, while I appreciate your view it was said at the AGM and before that the the div1 was basically the replacement for the KSL and not about club squash. |
Is there anyone from the committee who can confirm that Priory D1 is the replacement for the defunct KSL as, correct me if I am wrong, but the rules apply to all divisions and not just D1. If D1 was the new KSL it should have its own set of rules, or at least addendums to the Priory rules to reflect the difference. |
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ML
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:52 am Post subject: |
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OTH, I think you might be taking this a little too personally, please don't!
My thoughts are just thoughts that I'm putting out to see what other captains think. Of course Cascades playing one pro in one match doesn't constitute spiraling out of control , I don't believe I said that did I? Don't take things so litterally!
Playing you guys next week is not the basis of our discussion (and it is a discussion), these points have been raised long before. I'm meerly pre-empting a possible paid player frenzy at the end of the season which is not representative of the team that got them there in the first place.
I salute strong teams, paid or not. As long as the feet stay on the ground. I for one will keep the core Biggin Hill team element going and put out a consistently strong team throughout.
Honest, you have fair views however my thoughts remain that paid players, so long as consistent, are a viable option. It's the mercenary in for one match to get a result type of situation that I'm sure we would prefer not to see. That just tends to devalue the league and what we play for don't you think?
Like I said before guys, this is a discussion and it's open to all |
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Cider Drinker
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Old Man wrote: |
Although I am not a captain, I think that the teams should only be able to use the players that they have used previously in the group stages for the final stages.
I have another thought of the final stages though.
Top three in each group go through to the final but carry the points across (super six style), and the same for the bottom three.
This would mean that every team has something to play for in the later stages, plus it would mean 16 games in total.
The nomination two weeks before rule would be better used for the winter league. It works well in the Surrey Cup. |
All good points OM and I definitely agree with the one only allowing players to play in the final stages who've played in the initial group stage.
Although saying that, I'm no captain either  |
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over the hill
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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ML, I generally agree with the spirit you put forward. We are following the Hillbillies model and I want to put out a consistently strong team, but like yourselves there's no point in thrashing the weaker teams. We could have played AI and PR this evening against SP but what's the point.
By not playing them everyone should get a great game and enjoy the evening. |
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honestsquash
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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In fairness looking at the (paid club members) squads available there would be some titanic battles and quality squash played at that level. At the moment the super league mantle only seems to be grasped by 4 teams As I said previously the committee need to decide on what Priory D1 is to be, personally if you want paid and 'outside' players playing for a club you should introduce a premier league and see how many applications are made to join it. |
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Old Man
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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You used to be a captain CD, how times have changed. |
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Pietro
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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Do behave ML! Less of the long boring posts, short and sweet son.
Over the bloody hill you keep changing your mind about the Baker boy. One minute you're gonna stick him in at 1 and the next he's playing 4 or 5  Sounds like your gonna do a number on the hilly boys. Is Bake even gonna get into the team ha ha ha |
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Jolly John
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Old Man wrote: |
| You used to be a captain CD, how times have changed. |
CD, you can be captain of my Fantasy team, if you want. I can't guarantee that you'll be in it though. |
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Jolly John
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| honestsquash wrote: |
| if you want paid and 'outside' players playing for a club you should introduce a premier league and see how many applications are made to join it. |
I'm sure all the teams in Red 1 & Blue 1 were aware of the risks of getting some tough matches when they applied. In fact, that was probably why some of them did - rather than take the softer 'relegation' option. |
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over the hill
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Pietro wrote: |
Do behave ML! Less of the long boring posts, short and sweet son.
Over the bloody hill you keep changing your mind about the Baker boy. One minute you're gonna stick him in at 1 and the next he's playing 4 or 5 Sounds like your gonna do a number on the hilly boys. Is Bake even gonna get into the team ha ha ha |
Baker Man, number Uno tonight, and we're not out to do a number on any one team, but we hope to be mid to the upper end of the table
Must say the guys are looking forward to playing the mote |
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ML
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Nice input Pietro, very amusing...Son!
OTH, the Biggin Hill model of raising or lowering the team level is one that whilst I'm pleased you'd like to emulate, was not in fact an ideal situation for us. I simply made the best of a good problem which was that I just had too many players wanting to play. As you know, I'd call up a team and if they were weak I'd think great, I can play some of the guys down the bottom end of the order and give the top guys a break.
I would much prefer to follow the Dulwich methodoligy (and actually the Rodmersham one too) basically meaning; this is our team, yes it's strong but we're coming whatever. Yes you are right that no one wants to get thrashed and none of us want to thrash a team off the court however, (a big however), if we dropped the standard down every time we played a much weaker team, we're actually weakening our own division. What I mean is that if a team got beaten convincingly week in week out, they would probably opt to go to a lower division OR they might choose to strengthen up by getting a new number 1 or 2 in? Either way is a good outcome.
THEN HS, this is how a 'Super' division is born. It would actually just be called Division 1 but would have super type teams playing with a combined common interest. Paid players or not, Rodmersham would be in that league competing with the best of them. |
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over the hill
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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ML, good points one and all. First time we've done this so we are still learning. Please bare with us (or rather me  ). have a slightly different problem with number of players as I mentioned before, don't have the depth of the Hill or Rodder's so short of players rather then having to many. |
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honestsquash
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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OK ML I understand what you are trying to say but could you explain why the original KSL disbanded as I do not know, one season it was there the next gone  |
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Old Man
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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I believe the KSL fell apart because of the lack of interest and the lack of teams!
It was also played on a thursday night and for some it was just one match to many with a lot of the players playing tuesday in NW Priory/Outer Kent and also surrey cup on another day. |
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tintin
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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We’re as guilty as anyone at fielding inconsistent teams, but I am in favour of consistency and I think ML’s suggestions are sensible. I would be in favour of any rule changes that increased minimum appearances, and made the criteria for playing in the latter (and more crucial) stages of the season stricter, etc.
Bit brief but if I’m going to make tonight’s match I better get back to work! |
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ML
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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OTH this is of course not a dictorial and I certainly don't want to preach about a right or wrong way of managing a team. You do it your own way and in a way that suits first and foremost the players, you and your club. There I go again telling you what to do!
HS, as Old Man rightly pointed out it was just one match too many for most. Certainly was for me, that's why I never played - well that and the fact I'd probably not have been able to get in the team |
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honestsquash
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| tintin wrote: |
| Bit brief but if I’m going to make tonight’s match I better get back to work! |
Damn, Youv'e just reminded me why I came up to London for today  |
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Jolly John
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Old Man wrote: |
I believe the KSL fell apart because ...
It was also played on a thursday night and for some it was just one match to many with a lot of the players playing tuesday in NW Priory/Outer Kent and also surrey cup on another day. |
Early days, but how are Rodmersham & Mote finding the clash with the OK Summer fixtures? Or has that been killed off too? If so, we (KP) are still looking for any floaters to fill our Div.3 squadette. |
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honestsquash
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Jolly John wrote: |
| Early days, but how are Rodmersham & Mote finding the clash with the OK Summer fixtures? Or has that been killed off too? If so, we (KP) are still looking for any floaters to fill our Div.3 squadette. |
Generally at Rodmersham the players in Priory will only 'guest' in OK during the summer, it is normally a weakened summer turnout. In saying that I think that JB may play for you in the summer JJ as he wants to try and get a win in before the end of the season |
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Jolly John
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| honestsquash wrote: |
| I think that JB may play for you in the summer JJ as he wants to try and get a win in before the end of the season |
I presume you mean next summer - unless you have another JB? I'll nominate him at 4a just in case - then he'll have a nice five setter against Syd. |
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honestsquash
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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Syd still at 4, who's he playing above YSL? |
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Jolly John
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| honestsquash wrote: |
Generally at Rodmersham the players in Priory will only 'guest' in OK during the summer, it is normally a weakened summer turnout. |
Yes, I see that the boomerang man, poor NB, had to 'guest' for you at 1 quite a few times last year! |
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Jolly John
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| honestsquash wrote: |
| Syd still at 4, who's he playing above YSL? |
No, anyone - it's a tactical switch - YSL only plays in the dead rubber. |
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honestsquash
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure, last year I 'guested' for Syd (probably why they went down) |
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CL
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: RED AND BLUE SPLIT |
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| Tin Man wrote: |
I know it's a bit early but can anyone confirm what happens nearing the end of the summer league?
Do the winners of each group play each other to see who's the overall winner?
And so on down the order? Do the last places play to see who's last?
Do the 3rd's, 4th's etc play each other?
Can't find the format anywhere on the web site.
I need to know so I can work out when I need to peak!!! |
Getting back to the original question Tin Man - I'd say you were peaking already judging by last week's result. Nice one ... |
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Old Man
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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unfortunately CL he hasn't been able to walk since! |
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Tin Man
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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And no Team of the Week either. Thought I stood a chance of being on the left column instead of the right for a change!  |
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P.C.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:38 am Post subject: |
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Apologies to everyone, but P.C. has left the building pro tem. |
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