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Okay, I want to preface this post by saying that I'm not a religious man. That's as far as I'm going on that subject. That being said, this video amazed me. 2 young Mormons approached a man to "spread the gospel," and instead were taught a lesson. This man's intelligence and knowledge are astounding, and his debate skills, stunning. Watch on!
Politics & Religion are never subjects that you want to fight over, because everyone thinks they are the winners.
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At the risk of upsetting some people here, my wife and I are born again Christians and I have done the same thing as the video years ago. The difference is, I cheated! My wife and I attended several adult Sunday school classes at Calvary Baptist Christian Church in Belvidere. During one class we received a paper with questions and answers for mormons to trip them up about Jesus. Weeks later a pair of mormons (always a teacher & student) showed up at our home knocking on the door and using this question & answer sheet complete with verses they were lost. I too nicely refused to take their "book of mormons" from the teacher and offered my question & answer sheet to his student. The student took my sheet and it was clear looking at the teacher that he was not happy the student took my "Words of GOD!" sheet
Wow! Isn't that a demonstration of what Jesus said in Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost." Praise the Lord I'm on the same side
OK... since I am the boards resident Mormon, I guess, since I know JPaint, that his intentions are good. However, I want to make something perfectly clear: I am already on the Elders side. Since I am a Mormon, why would I not defend the missionaries in whom represent us? My bias here is clearly free and admitted.
NOTE: Since there was no formal introduction of names, I will give psuedo names in accordance to how I see these men.
The Mormon Elders: Elders
The Other Guy: Mr. Obvious
First of all, there is a thingy in the psych world called tranference of guilt. What it means is that an action, as revealed from an individual, transfers the blame of his own weakness upon his listener because of the guilt he personally feels of it.
This video reeks with such aberrant behavior from our Mr. Obvious, I scarcely know where to begin. There were two specific actions on his part that are apparent of the description:
1. He blamed the Elders of "overtalking" when clearly Mr. Obvious hardly gave them a word edgewise. He asked several questions and never gave them a chance to respond. Clearly, Mr. Obvious set out to dominate the "discussion" from the very beginning while still accusing the Elders for "dominating the discussion." He stated that they were "having a discussion" when in the same breath said "I don't have to listen to you." He had no intention of listening and there was nothing he was willing to learn from them. Which leads into number 2.
2. He tried, unsuccessfully to me, to intimidate the Elders by displaying, in front of a camera, that he knows more than they, as HE supposes. While showboating, he twisted their answers to fit his already preconceived ideas of their religion. He mischaracterized their meaning for being there, and He accused them of being "angry", even said that they "are evil," as if to equate anger as being evil. Transference of guilt.
Second, the arrogance of Mr. Obvious is, well, obvious; which is the reason why I gave him that name. When a man says that "no man can stand against us," I would challenge him to tell that to the Savior of mankind.
In the end, he implied that they were not of Christ simply because they did not bid him "Godspeed." In the wake of that accusation, he refused to shake their hands and did not offer the same "Godspeed" he himself used as a test of their faith in Christ. Tad bit of hypocrisy if I ever did witness it.
Then, he ended the tape by calling them "white boys" which is clearly a racial slur, leading me to believe that Mr. Obvious is a racist.
Sorry, but Mr Obvious has not an ounce of credibility.
Notwithstanding, I will be fair enough to state what I believe are mistakes on the Elders part.
1. Clearly, they were frustrated, but not "angry." They allowed Mr.Obvious to "get their goat."
2. They tried teaching a discussion right there in the parking lot. Their approach should have been to invite them to get together in the near future to have a discussion where a teaching atmosphere (spirit) can be established (starting out with proper introductions, having prayer to invite the Spirit of God, and refreshments for example).
Now, to their credit, they did state in their approach that they were there to TEACH. And they correctly asked if Mr. Obvious would be interested. At THAT point, he was free to either accept the invitation or decline. Instead, he asked them if THEY were interested in learning about Christ (his first display of arrogance). These young men decide to serve Christ by heeding the commission given to them by Christ by paying out of their own pockets in most cases for two years on a mission, sacrificing the comforts of home, family, girlfriend, school, television, radio, sports, holidays, and other self-gratifying activities; to do nothing more than to focus their whole lives on TEACHING the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Though they gave Mr. Obvious wide latitude, they should have spoke no further than to get a answer to their initial invitation. Either yeh or nay. If Mr. Obvious was not willing to listen to the Elders of anything they have to say (by his own words as well as actions), I doubt even the Lord Himself would require it of them to spend anymore time with this man. When the door is slamed into your face-as Mr. Obvious did with his comment to teach them-you do not stand there waiting for something to happen. You leave. While Mr. Obvious did not specifically decline, I can understand the Elders trying to open dialogue. However, it should be noted that even Jesus used His time more effectively. The Elders did not.
I am going to end here. If anyone wants to talk of the actual religious/historical points made by either side in this video, I am open to discuss it. One thing I like about the internet: There is no overtalking in the dialogue. Nobody can dominate the discussion. We only have to decide whether we want to read and type...or not.
During one class we received a paper with questions and answers for mormons to trip them up about Jesus. Weeks later a pair of mormons (always a teacher & student) showed up at our home knocking on the door and using this question & answer sheet complete with verses they were lost.
Brian, with all due respect good brother, first, let me state that your description of the "teacher & student" relationship in not accurate. They are equal companions, though at times, one Elder has clearly more experience, being on his mission longer, than the other.
Second, I want you to know that I respect your religious freedom enough that I would never give you something with the intent to "trip you up about Jesus." I believe we call this "deceit." I will assume, however, since we are Union Brothers, and Christians, that your intent is pure.
So, I digress. If you would like to submit your questionnaire to me, I will give an honest and objective attempt to answer the questions.
I just want to say that I didn't mean to offend anyone, nor do I take either side of this argument. I'm not about to delve into a religious discussion, nor did I intend for this post to become a Mormon bashing session. I really was impressed with the man's skill in sidestepping and blindsiding these two. Granted, he was completely overbearing and clearly wasn't interested in letting the two young men talk, but it was quite clear he was knowledgeable on the subject. Arrow, you know me well enough, but some here do not. Let me be clear: Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.
I will assume, however, since we are Union Brothers, and Christians, that your intent is pure.
Your assumption was correct, my intent was pure.
When I had previously said:
BrianLaws wrote:
During one class we received a paper with questions and answers for mormons to trip them up about Jesus.
I should have said, "During one class we received a paper with questions and answers to show the differences between the two beliefs" I'd like to note that the sheet was not given to us in class with the intent to seek out mormons and push our beliefs on them. I do not hide my religion and only try to answer questions when asked because I do respect peoples right to their own beliefs.
I've said in another thread that with Politics & Religion you can talk all day and at the end of the day each person will walk away feeling the WINNER with their own beliefs.
I just want to say that I didn't mean to offend anyone, nor do I take either side of this argument. I'm not about to delve into a religious discussion, nor did I intend for this post to become a Mormon bashing session. I really was impressed with the man's skill in sidestepping and blindsiding these two. Granted, he was completely overbearing and clearly wasn't interested in letting the two young men talk, but it was quite clear he was knowledgeable on the subject. Arrow, you know me well enough, but some here do not. Let me be clear: Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.
Absolutely... No offense taken whatsoever. And I have no doubt that this fella is skillfull at sidestepping and blindsiding. But, those are not skills for which I can boast as being inherently Christian.
I should have said, "During one class we received a paper with questions and answers to show the differences between the two beliefs" I'd like to note that the sheet was not given to us in class with the intent to seek out mormons and push our beliefs on them. I do not hide my religion and only try to answer questions when asked because I do respect peoples right to their own beliefs.
I've said in another thread that with Politics & Religion you can talk all day and at the end of the day each person will walk away feeling the WINNER with their own beliefs.
I understand now. Thanks for the explanation. I would like to say, however, that if I enter into a discussion about religion, it is not my intent to walk away a winner; only to be right in what I have conveyed. There is a difference. Frankly, I see no point to even communicate unless I am right in what I say.
Having been an ordained elder for more than 20 years, I have learned to differentiate between my opinions and what I know is true. There are few things in life that I can testify as being the absolute truth. But, make no bones about it, I have no fear to attest those things if the situation calls for it.
As you Brian, I am mostly quiet about my beliefs unless specifically asked. I try to allow my example in character preach the gospel, if you know what I mean. However, if given the opportunity to share it, I will without hesitation.
I just want to say that I didn't mean to offend anyone, nor do I take either side of this argument. I'm not about to delve into a religious discussion, nor did I intend for this post to become a Mormon bashing session. I really was impressed with the man's skill in sidestepping and blindsiding these two. Granted, he was completely overbearing and clearly wasn't interested in letting the two young men talk, but it was quite clear he was knowledgeable on the subject. Arrow, you know me well enough, but some here do not. Let me be clear: Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.
Absolutely... No offense taken whatsoever. And I have no doubt that this fella is skillfull at sidestepping and blindsiding. But, those are not skills for which I can boast as being inherently Christian.
Arrow>>>--------->
Sorry JPaint....duh...I forgot to log in.
Brian is there a feature that I can click on that autos my log in when I click on the linl in my email?
Arrow, We obviously have differences of opinions in both politics and religion. I will defend your right to freedom of speech and religion just as much as I do my own. I thank God that as of now we still have those freedoms.
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When a man says that "no man can stand against us," I would challenge him to tell that to the Savior of mankind.
I definitely disagree with your statement. No one defeated Christ in any way; Jesus Christ gave His life willingly I will back up my opinion with Scripture.
Jesus was speaking in the following New Testament Scriptures:
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John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 10:17-18Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Matthew 26:53-54 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
God allows each of us to make our own choice to accept or reject the gift of His Son, Jesus Christ. It is that acceptance or rejection that determines our eternal destiny.
This is from the Old Testament
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Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
And now to our eternal destiny near the end of the Book
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Revelation 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
When a man says that "no man can stand against us," I would challenge him to tell that to the Savior of mankind.
I definitely disagree with your statement. No one defeated Christ in any way; Jesus Christ gave His life willingly
Granny, you misunderstood what I said. The man in the video is the one who said that "no man can stand against us." He is just a man himself. His aggrandizement was a display of arrogance.
Your scriptures would not apply in this case as I was not speaking of any man not being able to stand against the Savior. Of course no man can stand against the Savior. My point was that Mr. Obvious would not, dare not say that to the Savior.
By the way, while I am here, I did the research on Huckabee and the CFR. You are correct in that there is no specific mention of him being a "member" of the CFR. But, in politics, a man is judged by the company he keeps. If he surrounds himself with CFR members, speaks at their events, condones their policies, what is the real difference?
Also, like Old School said, read the bio of Huckabee on the CFR site. There is no way I can agree with his foreign policy on many fronts. They are the same as the neocons. And in others, he remains unknown. The fact is, he is a nation builder and advocates control of other nations, even by death, to savor the interests of the United States. There were too many things to even mention in this forum that is not even close to being Christ-like.
And that is what confuses me about the man. I listened to the video you presented to the forum. I was moved by his words and his ability to articulate and characterize the Founders intent. However, how can he advocate the Founders intent and in the same breath, demean the intent by following after neocon and even neoliberal foreign policy?
And to comment on the fact that God has killed, let us not forget that God is Just. His judgment is true. We cannot expect the same when men of political and economic ambitions seeks to expand their empires and be justified to kill, indeed, murder innocent people. And I for one will support no man that advocates such policies.
I will say this again. Do not be fooled by the soundbites from mainstream news agencies. The "War on Terror" is a fraud, smokescreening the real intent behind the Money Powers. These so-called terrorists-which are no more than what we made them, as WE created the Taliban with our own money, the Bushes and Bin Ladens being past business partners-have no more power than the effective range of an RPG round. Iran has no nucs, as just been reported by a UN inspection report. And if you do not believe the UN, then you must, by default, say you believe a fascist for the president we have in office now. And Huckabee sanctions all this.
And this bears repeating as well. 9/11 would have never, could have never happened without some kind of help from more powerful forces. You can interpret that however way you want, because that is a whole other topic for discussion.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ challenges us to a higher law. The law being, to love God AND love our NEIGHBOR. I do not consider the killing of 500,000 babies and 800,00 innocent Iraqis love.
Ron Pauls message of Peace, as well as Liberty, is a threat to Establishment powers. He has a track record of distancing himself from those parties. While Huckabee is beginning to embrace them.
My beliefs changed about 180° 28 years ago when I was confronted by what the Bible actually says, as opposed to what I thought it said (and had wanted it to say). The Scriptures have radically changed many millions of people's theology!
Contrary to popular opinion, John the Baptist’s middle name is not “the”.
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Matthew 3:13-17 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
John was termed a Baptist because he practiced total immersion baptism. I am a Baptist, too. But, I want to be very clear; I do not agree with those associated with the Westboro Baptist Church spreading hatred that goes against Scripture. 2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
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My wife and I attended several adult Sunday school classes at Calvary Baptist Christian Church in Belvidere.
Brian, have you ever heard or read the history of the Baptist Church? If not, you might be interested in
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"The Trail of Blood . . ." Following the Christians Down Through the Centuries . . .or The History of Baptist Churches From the Time of Christ, Their Founder, to the Present Day
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I will back up my opinion with Scripture.
