Unless you've lived under a rock for the past few years, you know that ammo, or rather the lack thereof is beginning to be an important consideration for gun owners.
Recently a militia officer here decided to abandon his Mak 90 in 7.62 x 39 and go with an M1A and a Mini 14 in .223. I fully understood his logic in the M1A and .308. On the Mini 14, I have mixed emotions.
Parts availability (especially quality magazines) is limited on the Mini 14. Other than that, it is an under-rated firearm for self defense use and especially close quarters encounters.
Where ammo is concerned, the .223 is quite abundant. And you can find stuff to build almost any kind of specialty ammo you want in that caliber: tracers, AP, etc. Ballistically it's inferior to the 7.62 x 39 and that is where the crisis comes into play.
Most (and I mean about 95 percent) of the 7.62 x 39 ammo out there is steel cased, bi metal, berdan primed... which means it is not reloadable. The .223 and the .308 have an abundance of choices in brass cases and you can get NEW bullets for reloading for under $50 a thousand - and that includes the ss109 variety too.
So the crisis becomes one where you have to think about buying THOUSANDS of rounds of 7.62 x 39 ammo to insure you will have enough for one of those SHTF scenarios OR you can opt for the .223 and buy a case of ammo, collect a few cases and every few months buy a thousand of the bullets for reloading until you have what you think is a sufficient amount to do you.
So, which do you think is more important to have, the ballistically superior 7.62 x 39 or the more abundant and reloadable .223? What do you see as long range plans when ammo becomes scarce (as if it isn't already)? We'd like your thoughts on this aspect.
in my opinion, it all simply depends on the individual and their plans. for example, if you were fairly poor, and decided not to defend your rented home or apartment (and bug out to the woods, rather), i would say go with 7.62x39. reason is this: if you bug out, odds are you will be on foot... and not capable of carrying more than 500 rounds plus full mags of ANY calibre. 7.62x39 is cheap and ballistic superior to anything for the price. 7.62x39 is a good starter calibre as well. you can always upgrade when you have more money. and if the SH'sTF and you bug out, you can always lay an ambush and take a superior weapon off of a kill.
if you've got the money, go with a weapon in .308. ballisticly speaking, the battlefield superior. as far as i know, the is no mass produced body armour at this point in time that can stop the .308. problem is, effing expensive ammo, and the weapons aint cheap either. cheapest .308 on the market right now is the SAIGA .308. You can get this weapon for 300 at a gun show. problem is, extra mags will cost you your firstborn. the CETME is more expensive (500-600) for the weapon, but cheap, cheap, cheap on the mags.
lastly, .223 REM (5.56 nato) is a middle of the road type calibre. ballisticly, the round was designed for VARMIT HUNTING, and does not have the desire knockdown power needed to extinguish a confrontation with the quickness that i would prefer. it is, however, extremely accurate out to as far as 1000 yards. if you rock a headshot every time you'll be happy with this calibre, if not you may want something more beefy like the 7.62x39 or .308. i'd say that if you want a middle of the road (price and ballistics) calibre and have the intention of defending your home or property with that weapon, something in .223/5.56 is your ticket. i, myself have never really enjoyed any AR that i have shot. they all feel like shooting plastic toys to me.
i think everyone should do their research before buying a weapon in any calibre. know your intentions with the weapon, your needs for the weapon, and your price range. no one calibre is right for everyone, just as no weapon is right for everyone. personally, i don't feel anywhere near as comfortable shooting a weapon that isn't an AK variant. i just like the way the AK handles. My preference in calibre would have to be .308, but i am poor, so my love for .308 has left me feeling lonely and rejected.
as far as a shortage in ammo goes, my mentality is this: i decided the first day i bought my rifle how much ammo i needed to have for it as a bare minimum. i've never had less than my minimum and never will as long as we live in times of "peace". if i want to practice shooting, i shoot .22's. if anything, when your type of ammo becomes more rare, the value of your ammo should go up. business opportunity if i ever saw one. _________________ Luck is where preperation meets opportunity.
I do have a Savage Target model in .308. Far superior to a .223 in stopping power, even way out there. Less wind interferene too--but I attribute that to the heavier bullet weight.
And, I need to mention, there is relatively no 'threat' when one is laying shots into a paper target, at a friendly range. Maybe the clock is working against you, but nothing like another person wanting to kill you.
So, with that, the reality is that an SKS in 7.62 X 39 is the MBR for me.
Like you and the AK (which I can not posses over here in the detached society of CA) the SK just 'feels right', has the close quarter capabilities as well, 300 yds or so is max effective for ME.
And the ammo--well, I was fortunate that I saw the light long before current day. I bought it cheap and stacked it deep...long time ago. But I'm keepin mine--to use.
Also, the carry of this stuff is a considertion. I can't be totin all this ammo. I guess I'm standing my ground.
Cordially
CDJ _________________ A ship in a harbor is safe, but that is not what they are made for.
I chose the expensive route and got both. I reload .223, and I have a few thousand rounds of 7.62x39.
The x39 is excellent at short to medium distances, which is what I shoot it at. The x45 out of a good AR will be FAR more accurate at much longer distances. These attributes, as well as the attributes of the weapons that fire these calibers, should be considered when looking to purchase a weapon in either caliber.
Do you want to be able to pack a punch within 300 yards?
OR
Do you want better accuracy at longer distances?
There are two answers for this.
1. The 7.62x39mm and 308 are superior to the 223. As for recreational and sport shooting they are my choice and I only us the 223 for varmint and plinking. Use what you like for whatever reason you have.
2. As we in the R.N.E.M. well know, the conflict we prepare for is a domestic struggle. It is a rule written in stone, that in a situation of this type it would be tactically necessary to use the same standard ammo as our enemies. After your supply of "SHTF" ammo is gone you no longer have a gun....you have a club. You would not have a opportunity to reorder in a "Hot" scenario. You would come across 223 ammo in supply raids, battlefield pick-ups and smuggling from "friendlies" in their ranks. Every ambush could resupply your ammo reserves. This is what eventually will happen the first few days of a domestic revolution as odd ammo and weapons are used up without a way to resupply. Save time and get a cheap AR to train with and prepare to use it. Taste has nothing to do with battlefield practicality.
As you can tell, this subject always remains a point of contention.
The .223 is the most abundant of what we think of as the Main Battle Rifle calibers. But, it is usually a pipsqueak caliber (though the ss109 helps make a difference.)
Up the ladder from that is the 7.62 x 39. Most of it is steel cased, berdan primed... which means not reloadable.
Then comes your .308... Rogue Nation has a point. You would find that the ammo your enemy uses would be the best caliber to stick with... unless your organization has mobile reloading and supply trucks.
And who is the enemy we most likely will face? Al Queada or maybe the UN with a Martial Law scenario? We really need to think about it. A weapon with no ammo is just a high priced boat anchor.
so let me say this once more in simple terms... you don't have to keep the damn rifle. i keep 500 rounds on me, always. if i can't put at least one hostile target down and take his AR or H&K, I need to just take my rifle, hand it to the "authorities" and say, "Take me to the FEMA camp. I am not man enough to take care of myself."
read Guerilla warfare, by che guevara. (i know he was a commie, but a damn fine fighter and commander. we need to learn from our enemies as well). that particular book talks all about it.
but then again, i'm of the mindset that the only style of warfare we are at all capable of waging is that of guerilla hit and run tactics. _________________ Luck is where preperation meets opportunity.
My personal opinion (since I'm opinionated, lol) is to stash a rifle (and handgun) in each caliber that one might find on one's enemies. (7,62x39, 308, .223, 9mm, 45acp, .40, and of course the easily quieted 22LR) Ok, so 22LR might not be "battle material" but when one wants to munch on some squirrel butt or rabbit butt, does one want one's rifle to let one's enemies know where one IS? lol Plus, the 22LR is fun and cheap to plink targets with on weekends when one gets hoarse from screaming at the Commie New Network on tv...LOL. stress relief ya know!
NOW, if only I could win the lottery to get something other than that ruger 10/22....... _________________ Don't Tread On ME....lest my fangs wind up in your foot !
Also for the survivalist reloaders out there - start collecting old wheel weights from your local tire stores- the lead alloy they are made of make GREAT bullets if you cast your own - made of a very hard lead alloy- they penetrate well and don't deform much on impact as MANY commercially made copper jacketed bullets do - as copper jacketed bullets are filled with soft lead- have found that the bullets DO NOT lead up the barrel of the firearm and hundreds have been fired with great accuracy - penetration and NO ill rifle side effects - be sure to lube the bullets though with Lee bullet lube (or something similar)
You can also add soft lead to the melted pot of wheel weights and experiment with different bullet hardness for whatever application you want to develop them for. _________________ Check out my myspace:
http://www.myspace.com/canadiandeersniper
how widespred is the use of 5.56.x39 ie. ak74 round in forign armys and what would the chinese carry when operating under the UN flag _________________ "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."
- Claire Wolfe, 101 Things to Do 'Til the Revolution
from what I'm hearing from some friends, that 5.56 X 39 round is really catching on in many places. And those same friends are getting them due to the relitively low cost of the riffle and the ammo, when compared to .223/7.62 X39/.308.
I'm afraMid they're setting themselves up with a round that for sure will do harm. My question is, will it do enough to do what you do and move on without looking back?
As far as the Chinese, they will probably have them good old Norinco's in 7.62 X 39, IMO. Heck, they proved them in Vietnam. And they're build better, in many ways, than Kalisnikov.
Cordially
CDJ _________________ A ship in a harbor is safe, but that is not what they are made for.
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